5 ms·

Office environments today are like minefields. A man never knows when his next step, word, or simple action will be misconstrued as harassment. Hold a door? Th

by sheraz 11y ago

Office environments today are like minefields. A man never knows when his next step, word, or simple action will be misconstrued as harassment. Hold a door? Thats harassment. Wink ;-) in an email or IM? Thats harassment. Tell an off-color joke? Thats harassment. Complement female coworkers outfit? Thats harassment. Stand too close in an elevator or inline at the canteen? Thats harassment. Getting caught looking looking at a female coworkers boobs? Thats harassment. The problem is that at the end of the day it is all up to how that female employee "feels." If she is especially sensitive, then everyone around her has to walk on eggshells. Why can't anyone have a sense of humor about any of this? I think I'm going to watch 9 to 5 with Dolly Parton tonight, just to remember a time when people had a sense of humor about dealing with toxic office culture.

smackfu 11y ago
If you think her actual claims are not harassment, then argue that.
- sheraz 11y ago
  I think the first problem is that harassment is a loaded term. It implies more than what actually happened. Harassment, to me, is what bill collectors and bullys do. They call you repeatedly, they post about you on social media. They follow you home. Why not call it this -- her boss is an asshole, and she didn't call him out on it.
hluska 11y ago
Come on, that is bullshit. Simply, don't go out of your way to be an asshole. Genuine compliments are fine. Leering is wrong. Sexually suggestive comments or winks in emails are wrong. Don't treat anyone as a lesser form of life. This is so fucking simple and it makes for a better work environment for all.
- isnullorempty 11y ago
  So what are you supposed to do if you are attracted to someone at work, never make a move? Women need to be more forgiving and take it as a compliment, unless someone continues after a clear rejection (which is the definition of harassment).
  - pc86 11y ago
    You do not need a "clear rejection" to make something harassment. If I've never spoken to someone but I spend ten minutes a day staring at her chest, that's harassment. If I ask someone out, they say yes, and keep rescheduling 100 times, me continuing to ask them out and not take the (subtle, non-obvious) hint is still harassment.
    - isnullorempty 11y ago
      Looking at someone is harassment now? I must have harassed hundreds of women then, What about thinking about them?
      - pc86 11y ago
        If you are leering at someone day in and day out that is harassment. Is that really a difficult point to understand? I'm not talking about a glance because a woman is wearing a new shirt. That's not harassment, nobody ever said it was, and asserting otherwise is a straw man. But ogling the hot girl every day is.
        isnullorempty 11y ago
        Only if it's someone you aren't interested in, if a hot guy you liked made eye contact a few times and smiled it would make your day. Am I right?
        pc86 11y ago
        Well I'm a married heterosexual man, so the universe of "hot guys I like" is pretty small. And I don't know why you insist on continuing to argue against points I'm not making. I'm saying continued unwanted advances = harassment, regardless of the existence or lack of "clear rejection." If you flirt with someone at work (what exactly are you being paid to do?) and they reciprocate, it's not unwanted. If you do it once and they don't reciprocate, and you stop, it's not continued.
- sheraz 11y ago
  No it is not bullshit. This whole topic is filled with loaded words like "harassment" and "victim." Furthermore, workplace harassment laws are tipped in the females favor. If she even perceives something, then it happened. If you think that sending a wink to someone is treating them as a lower life form, then I don't think there is much I can say...
  - hluska 11y ago
    You are wrong. Sexual harassment laws are somewhat tipped in the victim's favour, but only because law in general is tipped slightly in the victim's favour. This is not about laws favouring women, it is just about how the law works. Simply, the victim's feelings matter. There is a difference between a wink and a wink after something sexually suggestive. If you can't understand that difference then yeah, there's nothing else I can say.
    - sheraz 11y ago
      And there in lies the problem -- we are legislating about "feelings." We have delegated to the state what our personal responsibility should have been all along. "Hey, asshole -- keep it in your pants or I will tell the whole office that you went through an Asian-fetish. Now can we discuss this TPS report or not?" Secondly, a wink after something sexually suggestive is a little redundant, wouldn't you say?
      - hluska 11y ago
        You have stopped trying to be productive and are just being argumentative now. Your third and fourth paragraphs are in particularly poor taste. I don't understand what is so difficult here. Her manager harassed her and the fear and embarrassment that she felt were real. If the genders were reversed, the result would have been the same. That is because in a civilized society, if you act in a way that makes someone uncomfortable, there needs to be accountability.
        sheraz 11y ago
bigethan 11y ago
s/A man/Oblivious Sheraz/
- sheraz 11y ago
  I have my own REGEX!!!! Upvote this everyone
pc86 11y ago
> Hold a door? I don't think holding a door has ever been seriously considered harassment. Yes, some people do get upset by it. > Wink ;-) in an email or IM? If you need emoticons in professional correspondence you should probably rethink what you're trying to say. I also don't think an emoticon has ever been considered harassment. > Tell an off-color joke? A. What's your definition of off-color? B. Unless you're a comedian, you probably shouldn't be telling racist/sexist/offensive jokes at work anyway. > Complement female coworkers outfit? Unless you're working in fashion I don't think you have any reason to do this, especially if it's not someone you wouldn't consider a friend. Here's a good rule: If you don't have a "chat on the weekends" type of relationship with someone, you probably shouldn't be commenting on their personal appearance at work. > Stand too close in an elevator or inline at the canteen? I think everyone can imagine that this has been done intentionally to make someone uncomfortable, especially in an elevator or in line. > Getting caught looking at a female coworkers boobs? Of course it's harassment, Jesus. > Why can't anyone have a sense of humor about any of this? I know, right?! I mean, I was just standing half an inch away from you in an empty elevator, commenting on how you were dressed and staring at your chest. Have a sense of humor about it!
- sheraz 11y ago
  ...I think we have butted heads in other threads... ;-) I get emojis from our legal and marketing teams all the time. It is a part of office culture in many / most places I would imagine. Here is my off-color joke: Q. How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb? A. One. AND THATS NOT FUNNY! Yes, I can complement anyone I like. I don't need to have a pre-existing relationship to do so. Here is the problem -- there are so many unintentional actions that occur. I might be in a hurry and reach across someone in the canteen. Rude? Perhaps. Harassment, nope.
  - gotchange 11y ago
    > Yes, I can complement anyone I like. I don't need to have a pre-existing relationship to do so. What if the other person doesn't want to hear your opinion or complements regarding a personal quality of his/her, would you stop and keep it to yourself or just keep embarrassing yourself till someone puts you in your right place?
orbat 11y ago
Do you, by any chance, often use the word "SJW" and not in an ironic way?

by sheraz 11y ago

smackfu 11y ago

If you think her actual claims are not harassment, then argue that.

sheraz 11y ago
I think the first problem is that harassment is a loaded term. It implies more than what actually happened. Harassment, to me, is what bill collectors and bullys do. They call you repeatedly, they post about you on social media. They follow you home. Why not call it this -- her boss is an asshole, and she didn't call him out on it.

hluska 11y ago

Come on, that is bullshit. Simply, don't go out of your way to be an asshole. Genuine compliments are fine. Leering is wrong. Sexually suggestive comments or winks in emails are wrong. Don't treat anyone as a lesser form of life. This is so fucking simple and it makes for a better work environment for all.

isnullorempty 11y ago
So what are you supposed to do if you are attracted to someone at work, never make a move? Women need to be more forgiving and take it as a compliment, unless someone continues after a clear rejection (which is the definition of harassment).
- pc86 11y ago
  You do not need a "clear rejection" to make something harassment. If I've never spoken to someone but I spend ten minutes a day staring at her chest, that's harassment. If I ask someone out, they say yes, and keep rescheduling 100 times, me continuing to ask them out and not take the (subtle, non-obvious) hint is still harassment.
  - isnullorempty 11y ago
    Looking at someone is harassment now? I must have harassed hundreds of women then, What about thinking about them?
    - pc86 11y ago
      If you are leering at someone day in and day out that is harassment. Is that really a difficult point to understand? I'm not talking about a glance because a woman is wearing a new shirt. That's not harassment, nobody ever said it was, and asserting otherwise is a straw man. But ogling the hot girl every day is.
      - isnullorempty 11y ago
        Only if it's someone you aren't interested in, if a hot guy you liked made eye contact a few times and smiled it would make your day. Am I right?
        pc86 11y ago
        Well I'm a married heterosexual man, so the universe of "hot guys I like" is pretty small. And I don't know why you insist on continuing to argue against points I'm not making. I'm saying continued unwanted advances = harassment, regardless of the existence or lack of "clear rejection." If you flirt with someone at work (what exactly are you being paid to do?) and they reciprocate, it's not unwanted. If you do it once and they don't reciprocate, and you stop, it's not continued.
sheraz 11y ago
No it is not bullshit. This whole topic is filled with loaded words like "harassment" and "victim." Furthermore, workplace harassment laws are tipped in the females favor. If she even perceives something, then it happened. If you think that sending a wink to someone is treating them as a lower life form, then I don't think there is much I can say...
- hluska 11y ago
  You are wrong. Sexual harassment laws are somewhat tipped in the victim's favour, but only because law in general is tipped slightly in the victim's favour. This is not about laws favouring women, it is just about how the law works. Simply, the victim's feelings matter. There is a difference between a wink and a wink after something sexually suggestive. If you can't understand that difference then yeah, there's nothing else I can say.
  - sheraz 11y ago
    And there in lies the problem -- we are legislating about "feelings." We have delegated to the state what our personal responsibility should have been all along. "Hey, asshole -- keep it in your pants or I will tell the whole office that you went through an Asian-fetish. Now can we discuss this TPS report or not?" Secondly, a wink after something sexually suggestive is a little redundant, wouldn't you say?
    - hluska 11y ago
      You have stopped trying to be productive and are just being argumentative now. Your third and fourth paragraphs are in particularly poor taste. I don't understand what is so difficult here. Her manager harassed her and the fear and embarrassment that she felt were real. If the genders were reversed, the result would have been the same. That is because in a civilized society, if you act in a way that makes someone uncomfortable, there needs to be accountability.
      - sheraz 11y ago

bigethan 11y ago

s/A man/Oblivious Sheraz/

sheraz 11y ago
I have my own REGEX!!!! Upvote this everyone

pc86 11y ago

> Hold a door? I don't think holding a door has ever been seriously considered harassment. Yes, some people do get upset by it. > Wink ;-) in an email or IM? If you need emoticons in professional correspondence you should probably rethink what you're trying to say. I also don't think an emoticon has ever been considered harassment. > Tell an off-color joke? A. What's your definition of off-color? B. Unless you're a comedian, you probably shouldn't be telling racist/sexist/offensive jokes at work anyway. > Complement female coworkers outfit? Unless you're working in fashion I don't think you have any reason to do this, especially if it's not someone you wouldn't consider a friend. Here's a good rule: If you don't have a "chat on the weekends" type of relationship with someone, you probably shouldn't be commenting on their personal appearance at work. > Stand too close in an elevator or inline at the canteen? I think everyone can imagine that this has been done intentionally to make someone uncomfortable, especially in an elevator or in line. > Getting caught looking at a female coworkers boobs? Of course it's harassment, Jesus. > Why can't anyone have a sense of humor about any of this? I know, right?! I mean, I was just standing half an inch away from you in an empty elevator, commenting on how you were dressed and staring at your chest. Have a sense of humor about it!

sheraz 11y ago
...I think we have butted heads in other threads... ;-) I get emojis from our legal and marketing teams all the time. It is a part of office culture in many / most places I would imagine. Here is my off-color joke: Q. How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb? A. One. AND THATS NOT FUNNY! Yes, I can complement anyone I like. I don't need to have a pre-existing relationship to do so. Here is the problem -- there are so many unintentional actions that occur. I might be in a hurry and reach across someone in the canteen. Rude? Perhaps. Harassment, nope.
- gotchange 11y ago
  > Yes, I can complement anyone I like. I don't need to have a pre-existing relationship to do so. What if the other person doesn't want to hear your opinion or complements regarding a personal quality of his/her, would you stop and keep it to yourself or just keep embarrassing yourself till someone puts you in your right place?

orbat 11y ago

Do you, by any chance, often use the word "SJW" and not in an ironic way?