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> It seems to me like the victim wasn't making it clear that she was uncomfortable The default position should be to assume that everybody is uncomfortable wit

by nikcub 11y ago

> It seems to me like the victim wasn't making it clear that she was uncomfortable The default position should be to assume that everybody is uncomfortable with everything unless otherwise stated. It's like a good firewall policy - default block all and then explicitly allow.

forgottenpass 11y ago
That's a good way to wind up unhappy and alone at work. Chances are that anyone using that strategy and isn't miserable has a fair number of unspoken assumptions about acceptable behavior, and don't actually use that strategy but are slightly more guarded that normal so they think they do.
- nikcub 11y ago
  That not wanting to be sexually harassed would make someone unhappy and miserable in a workplace is exactly the problem.
  - ethbro 11y ago
    You missed forgottenpass's more nuanced point. "Not wanting to be sexually harassed would make someone unhappy and miserable in a workplace" was not the assertion. The assertion was "going to such extremes as to guarantee that no claims of sexual harassment could at any time be made against you would make you unhappy and miserable in a workplace".
ethbro 11y ago
If I assumed everyone at work was uncomfortable with everything I might say, then I would be the most boring coworker ever. This isn't an absolute kind of issue. If instead you meant "assume that everybody is uncomfortable with everything [approaching any kind of sexual tone]", then that's more realistic but simultaneously introduces a lot more gray area.
dawnbreez 11y ago
This fails for the same reason "stranger danger" fails; in order to get anything done, you must connect on a certain level. To use your analgoy, you could run a server entirely via port 22. But it can't host a webpage, run game servers, or do much of anything else if it only accepts SSH via 22. The process of socializing is kind of like vetting another server to see if you can trust them enough to use FTP or whatever. Sometimes, yeah, they screw with you; but not always. And the benefits once you do find someone trustworthy are greater than the chance of a bad actor. Now, whether or not one should trust coworkers, and how much, is a personal question. You gotta decide that on your own.
aws_ls 11y ago
>It's like a good firewall policy - default block all and then explicitly allow. It reminded me of the veil (no offence to any culture). And I am sure you don't imply that. But if you advocate the other extreme, then there is always the risk of it going extreme in other direction.

by nikcub 11y ago

forgottenpass 11y ago

That's a good way to wind up unhappy and alone at work. Chances are that anyone using that strategy and isn't miserable has a fair number of unspoken assumptions about acceptable behavior, and don't actually use that strategy but are slightly more guarded that normal so they think they do.

nikcub 11y ago
That not wanting to be sexually harassed would make someone unhappy and miserable in a workplace is exactly the problem.
- ethbro 11y ago
  You missed forgottenpass's more nuanced point. "Not wanting to be sexually harassed would make someone unhappy and miserable in a workplace" was not the assertion. The assertion was "going to such extremes as to guarantee that no claims of sexual harassment could at any time be made against you would make you unhappy and miserable in a workplace".

ethbro 11y ago

If I assumed everyone at work was uncomfortable with everything I might say, then I would be the most boring coworker ever. This isn't an absolute kind of issue. If instead you meant "assume that everybody is uncomfortable with everything [approaching any kind of sexual tone]", then that's more realistic but simultaneously introduces a lot more gray area.

dawnbreez 11y ago

This fails for the same reason "stranger danger" fails; in order to get anything done, you must connect on a certain level. To use your analgoy, you could run a server entirely via port 22. But it can't host a webpage, run game servers, or do much of anything else if it only accepts SSH via 22. The process of socializing is kind of like vetting another server to see if you can trust them enough to use FTP or whatever. Sometimes, yeah, they screw with you; but not always. And the benefits once you do find someone trustworthy are greater than the chance of a bad actor. Now, whether or not one should trust coworkers, and how much, is a personal question. You gotta decide that on your own.

aws_ls 11y ago

>It's like a good firewall policy - default block all and then explicitly allow. It reminded me of the veil (no offence to any culture). And I am sure you don't imply that. But if you advocate the other extreme, then there is always the risk of it going extreme in other direction.