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See - this is interesting. There is definitely a sense that in "ye olden days" people were stauncher. There's a bit of application of so called common sense w

by Ntrails 11y ago

See - this is interesting. There is definitely a sense that in "ye olden days" people were stauncher. There's a bit of application of so called common sense where a lot of behaviours can be shut down by addressing them. Yet you instantly have to recognise that you just blamed the victim for not being more assertive, and not being able to protect themself from something that they should never have to deal with - it's not even close to acceptable behaviour. I am not unsympathetic to your point, I just kinda wish some consequences would start arising for the seemingly endless tide of entitled pricks who either don't care or don't know any better.

mbrutsch 11y ago
> Yet you instantly have to recognise that you just blamed the victim for not being more assertive You and every other commenter seems to think I don't understand that. Not sure why.
- EliRivers 11y ago
  It's because people give the benefit of the doubt and don't want to think you're the kind of guy who blames the weak and powerless when bullies abuse them.
  - mbrutsch 11y ago
    My mother was anything but "weak and powerless". Sure, standing up for yourself isn't "ladylike", and not everyone is willing or able to do it, but the current assumptions are "she is weak and powerless" and "he is a big strong bully". That dynamic is easily changed, but you have to be willing to stand up for yourself.
    - EliRivers 11y ago
      This isn't about your mother. Your mother managed to push the problem onto someone else, which is nice for her. There will always be people who, for whatever reason, don't. Is your attitude that it's acceptable for these people, who do not push the problem onto someone else, to be sexually assaulted? If it's not acceptable, why is it incorrect for the victim to seek help? If I were burgled, I would seek help. If I were mugged, I would seek help. Why is it incorrect for me to seek help if I am sexually assaulted by a manager? Furthermore, given that my employer has a duty to ensure a safe workplace, why should I not upbraid my employer for failing in that duty, or advise them of the problem so that they can correct it? If I saw a dangerously loose carpet, I would tell them. If I noticed some buzzing wiring, I would tell them. Why should I not tell them that one of their employees is sexually harassing people?
      - ethbro 11y ago
        > Is your attitude that it's acceptable for these people, who do not push the problem onto someone else, to be sexually assaulted? In a normally common-sense forum here, I'm kind of amazed by the number of comments here that go straight to the nuclear extension of the other's point. Can we assume that we're all against sexual assault here and have a bit more charitable discourse?
fche 11y ago
"you just blamed the victim" That phrase has lost meaning. Listing things the victim could have done differently or better is nothing but exploration of the causal chain. Blame in any logical or legal sense accrues only to a proximate-cause rule-violator kind of party.
tomp 11y ago
> Yet you instantly have to recognise that you just blamed the victim for not being more assertive Seriously? There's a difference between assigning blame and saying what could be done better. If I tell you that you should maybe next time lock your car after it was stolen, I still believe that the actual thieves are to blame.

by Ntrails 11y ago

mbrutsch 11y ago

> Yet you instantly have to recognise that you just blamed the victim for not being more assertive You and every other commenter seems to think I don't understand that. Not sure why.

EliRivers 11y ago
It's because people give the benefit of the doubt and don't want to think you're the kind of guy who blames the weak and powerless when bullies abuse them.
- mbrutsch 11y ago
  My mother was anything but "weak and powerless". Sure, standing up for yourself isn't "ladylike", and not everyone is willing or able to do it, but the current assumptions are "she is weak and powerless" and "he is a big strong bully". That dynamic is easily changed, but you have to be willing to stand up for yourself.
  - EliRivers 11y ago
    This isn't about your mother. Your mother managed to push the problem onto someone else, which is nice for her. There will always be people who, for whatever reason, don't. Is your attitude that it's acceptable for these people, who do not push the problem onto someone else, to be sexually assaulted? If it's not acceptable, why is it incorrect for the victim to seek help? If I were burgled, I would seek help. If I were mugged, I would seek help. Why is it incorrect for me to seek help if I am sexually assaulted by a manager? Furthermore, given that my employer has a duty to ensure a safe workplace, why should I not upbraid my employer for failing in that duty, or advise them of the problem so that they can correct it? If I saw a dangerously loose carpet, I would tell them. If I noticed some buzzing wiring, I would tell them. Why should I not tell them that one of their employees is sexually harassing people?
    - ethbro 11y ago
      > Is your attitude that it's acceptable for these people, who do not push the problem onto someone else, to be sexually assaulted? In a normally common-sense forum here, I'm kind of amazed by the number of comments here that go straight to the nuclear extension of the other's point. Can we assume that we're all against sexual assault here and have a bit more charitable discourse?

fche 11y ago

"you just blamed the victim" That phrase has lost meaning. Listing things the victim could have done differently or better is nothing but exploration of the causal chain. Blame in any logical or legal sense accrues only to a proximate-cause rule-violator kind of party.

tomp 11y ago

> Yet you instantly have to recognise that you just blamed the victim for not being more assertive Seriously? There's a difference between assigning blame and saying what could be done better. If I tell you that you should maybe next time lock your car after it was stolen, I still believe that the actual thieves are to blame.