3 ms·

When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. Good for

When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. Good for her. What happened next was that the offender moved on to someone else, and when they found someone who wasn't so confident as your mother, sexually assaulted her. It's nice that you wonder why people don't stand up for themselves, but you should be careful that people don't accidentally think that you're ascribing blame to the victim. It is interesting that you imply that in previous generations, there were no victims. This does not tally with the evidence I have that indicates that sexual assault and other such crimes have been with us for a long time.

mbrutsch 11y ago
> What happened next was that the offender moved on to someone else, and when they found someone who wasn't so confident as your mother, sexually assaulted her. Uh, no, but I can see how your expectations have been molded to believe this is the only possible "thing that happened next". > but you should be careful that people don't accidentally think that you're ascribing blame to the victim. No accident. The "victim" shares the responsibility of standing up for themselves. This culture of victimhood has helped no one but Tumblr.
- EliRivers 11y ago
  Uh, no, but I can see how your expectations have been molded to believe this is the only possible "thing that happened next". Do you think your mother was so special that a man who attempted to sexually assault her tried it that one time only, on her only? While it's not impossible, the balance of probability very much suggests that a man willing to try this on your mother is willing to try this on other women as well. As an aside, this is a text interface. There is no need to represent in text exactly what comes out of your mouth. You need not begin your sentences with "Uh". Why do you place the word "victim" in quotes? Do you suggest that they are not victims?
- fsloth 11y ago
  "No accident. The "victim" shares the responsibility of standing up for themselves. This culture of victimhood has helped no one but Tumblr." A sexual harassment is analogous to a situation where a person hits another person, the other person fails to duck/block and gets hit in the face. I really can't see how the victim could be responsible for getting hurt. The fact that some people have practiced the art of boxing and could have avoided it easily does not change this situation. Person-to-person interaction is quite different from feeling victimized due to a general phenomena.
  - mbrutsch 11y ago
    "You have a nice ass" == "a punch in the face"
    - fsloth 11y ago
      Psychological pain is as bad as physical. I was 'merely asked for a beer' once by a big hairy guy who had stalked me in a public swimming area. And I'm a straight male. I can tell you, sexual harassment is kinda like porn - you know what it is when you feel it.
js8 11y ago
> It's nice that you wonder why people don't stand up for themselves It also may be that people today don't want to stand up for themselves because they risk that the other party will play victim. There is this other comment which says that if she punched him, she would risk an assault accusation. Maybe it's the whole "somebody has to be a victim" mentality? Maybe it's lot less clear cut in most cases. I have to say, I would much prefer women to simply slap the men who do these uncomfortable things. I don't see anything wrong with it. Now if this would escalate afterwards, perhaps then should courts (or other institutions) be involved. > you should be careful that people don't accidentally think that you're ascribing blame to the victim I don't agree, the people who think that are the ones making an error, and we shouldn't accommodate them. How can we have an honest discussion about what is moral and what not, if we have the need to blame somebody? The blame can only come after it is decided what action is immoral, and understanding circumstances. Assigning who is a victim in advance prevents this understanding. > It is interesting that you imply that in previous generations, there were no victims I don't think he does, it's the faulty reasoning of yours (as you say in the previous sentence) that leads to conclusion that there is always 100% victim and 100% perpetrator. > the evidence I have that indicates that sexual assault and other such crimes have been with us for a long time I agree, that is very much true. But there is also other side of the coin, people (of both sexes!) are taking risks to get good sexual partners, it's just human nature. Ignoring the fact that people sometimes risk (and it fails!) in the interest of declaring somebody a victim does no good either. I mean, even if you move the boundary of what is acceptable in society (in either direction), there will always be people who will risk to cross the boundary, because that risk pays off. So I am not sure what is bigger involvement of institutions in these matters going to resolve. It's one of the blind spots of left and feminism (I am leftist), we don't want to hear about people who do take risks (because it's slightly irrational, after all), because our ideology cannot deal with them in any meaningful way. And personally, I see the mere existence of bosses (and human social hierarchies in general) as a bigger problem, of which sexual harassment is only a symptom.

mbrutsch 11y ago

> What happened next was that the offender moved on to someone else, and when they found someone who wasn't so confident as your mother, sexually assaulted her. Uh, no, but I can see how your expectations have been molded to believe this is the only possible "thing that happened next". > but you should be careful that people don't accidentally think that you're ascribing blame to the victim. No accident. The "victim" shares the responsibility of standing up for themselves. This culture of victimhood has helped no one but Tumblr.

EliRivers 11y ago
Uh, no, but I can see how your expectations have been molded to believe this is the only possible "thing that happened next". Do you think your mother was so special that a man who attempted to sexually assault her tried it that one time only, on her only? While it's not impossible, the balance of probability very much suggests that a man willing to try this on your mother is willing to try this on other women as well. As an aside, this is a text interface. There is no need to represent in text exactly what comes out of your mouth. You need not begin your sentences with "Uh". Why do you place the word "victim" in quotes? Do you suggest that they are not victims?
fsloth 11y ago
"No accident. The "victim" shares the responsibility of standing up for themselves. This culture of victimhood has helped no one but Tumblr." A sexual harassment is analogous to a situation where a person hits another person, the other person fails to duck/block and gets hit in the face. I really can't see how the victim could be responsible for getting hurt. The fact that some people have practiced the art of boxing and could have avoided it easily does not change this situation. Person-to-person interaction is quite different from feeling victimized due to a general phenomena.
- mbrutsch 11y ago
  "You have a nice ass" == "a punch in the face"
  - fsloth 11y ago
    Psychological pain is as bad as physical. I was 'merely asked for a beer' once by a big hairy guy who had stalked me in a public swimming area. And I'm a straight male. I can tell you, sexual harassment is kinda like porn - you know what it is when you feel it.

js8 11y ago

> It's nice that you wonder why people don't stand up for themselves It also may be that people today don't want to stand up for themselves because they risk that the other party will play victim. There is this other comment which says that if she punched him, she would risk an assault accusation. Maybe it's the whole "somebody has to be a victim" mentality? Maybe it's lot less clear cut in most cases. I have to say, I would much prefer women to simply slap the men who do these uncomfortable things. I don't see anything wrong with it. Now if this would escalate afterwards, perhaps then should courts (or other institutions) be involved. > you should be careful that people don't accidentally think that you're ascribing blame to the victim I don't agree, the people who think that are the ones making an error, and we shouldn't accommodate them. How can we have an honest discussion about what is moral and what not, if we have the need to blame somebody? The blame can only come after it is decided what action is immoral, and understanding circumstances. Assigning who is a victim in advance prevents this understanding. > It is interesting that you imply that in previous generations, there were no victims I don't think he does, it's the faulty reasoning of yours (as you say in the previous sentence) that leads to conclusion that there is always 100% victim and 100% perpetrator. > the evidence I have that indicates that sexual assault and other such crimes have been with us for a long time I agree, that is very much true. But there is also other side of the coin, people (of both sexes!) are taking risks to get good sexual partners, it's just human nature. Ignoring the fact that people sometimes risk (and it fails!) in the interest of declaring somebody a victim does no good either. I mean, even if you move the boundary of what is acceptable in society (in either direction), there will always be people who will risk to cross the boundary, because that risk pays off. So I am not sure what is bigger involvement of institutions in these matters going to resolve. It's one of the blind spots of left and feminism (I am leftist), we don't want to hear about people who do take risks (because it's slightly irrational, after all), because our ideology cannot deal with them in any meaningful way. And personally, I see the mere existence of bosses (and human social hierarchies in general) as a bigger problem, of which sexual harassment is only a symptom.