4 ms·

My mother worked in an all-male field starting in the 1970s; they didn't even have a women's bathroom at the plant when she started. When something like this h

My mother worked in an all-male field starting in the 1970s; they didn't even have a women's bathroom at the plant when she started. When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. I don't see where she says she ever even hinted to the manager that his actions were inappropriate. I suspect a single "cut that shit out, stop acting like a damn teenager" might well have stopped this problem in its tracks. But we'll never know. I read these tales of woe and wonder why people today lack the intestinal fortitude to stand up for themselves, rather than resigning themselves to the status of "victim".

EliRivers 11y ago
When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. Good for her. What happened next was that the offender moved on to someone else, and when they found someone who wasn't so confident as your mother, sexually assaulted her. It's nice that you wonder why people don't stand up for themselves, but you should be careful that people don't accidentally think that you're ascribing blame to the victim. It is interesting that you imply that in previous generations, there were no victims. This does not tally with the evidence I have that indicates that sexual assault and other such crimes have been with us for a long time.
- mbrutsch 11y ago
  > What happened next was that the offender moved on to someone else, and when they found someone who wasn't so confident as your mother, sexually assaulted her. Uh, no, but I can see how your expectations have been molded to believe this is the only possible "thing that happened next". > but you should be careful that people don't accidentally think that you're ascribing blame to the victim. No accident. The "victim" shares the responsibility of standing up for themselves. This culture of victimhood has helped no one but Tumblr.
  - EliRivers 11y ago
    Uh, no, but I can see how your expectations have been molded to believe this is the only possible "thing that happened next". Do you think your mother was so special that a man who attempted to sexually assault her tried it that one time only, on her only? While it's not impossible, the balance of probability very much suggests that a man willing to try this on your mother is willing to try this on other women as well. As an aside, this is a text interface. There is no need to represent in text exactly what comes out of your mouth. You need not begin your sentences with "Uh". Why do you place the word "victim" in quotes? Do you suggest that they are not victims?
  - fsloth 11y ago
    "No accident. The "victim" shares the responsibility of standing up for themselves. This culture of victimhood has helped no one but Tumblr." A sexual harassment is analogous to a situation where a person hits another person, the other person fails to duck/block and gets hit in the face. I really can't see how the victim could be responsible for getting hurt. The fact that some people have practiced the art of boxing and could have avoided it easily does not change this situation. Person-to-person interaction is quite different from feeling victimized due to a general phenomena.
    - mbrutsch 11y ago
      "You have a nice ass" == "a punch in the face"
      - fsloth 11y ago
        Psychological pain is as bad as physical. I was 'merely asked for a beer' once by a big hairy guy who had stalked me in a public swimming area. And I'm a straight male. I can tell you, sexual harassment is kinda like porn - you know what it is when you feel it.
- js8 11y ago
  > It's nice that you wonder why people don't stand up for themselves It also may be that people today don't want to stand up for themselves because they risk that the other party will play victim. There is this other comment which says that if she punched him, she would risk an assault accusation. Maybe it's the whole "somebody has to be a victim" mentality? Maybe it's lot less clear cut in most cases. I have to say, I would much prefer women to simply slap the men who do these uncomfortable things. I don't see anything wrong with it. Now if this would escalate afterwards, perhaps then should courts (or other institutions) be involved. > you should be careful that people don't accidentally think that you're ascribing blame to the victim I don't agree, the people who think that are the ones making an error, and we shouldn't accommodate them. How can we have an honest discussion about what is moral and what not, if we have the need to blame somebody? The blame can only come after it is decided what action is immoral, and understanding circumstances. Assigning who is a victim in advance prevents this understanding. > It is interesting that you imply that in previous generations, there were no victims I don't think he does, it's the faulty reasoning of yours (as you say in the previous sentence) that leads to conclusion that there is always 100% victim and 100% perpetrator. > the evidence I have that indicates that sexual assault and other such crimes have been with us for a long time I agree, that is very much true. But there is also other side of the coin, people (of both sexes!) are taking risks to get good sexual partners, it's just human nature. Ignoring the fact that people sometimes risk (and it fails!) in the interest of declaring somebody a victim does no good either. I mean, even if you move the boundary of what is acceptable in society (in either direction), there will always be people who will risk to cross the boundary, because that risk pays off. So I am not sure what is bigger involvement of institutions in these matters going to resolve. It's one of the blind spots of left and feminism (I am leftist), we don't want to hear about people who do take risks (because it's slightly irrational, after all), because our ideology cannot deal with them in any meaningful way. And personally, I see the mere existence of bosses (and human social hierarchies in general) as a bigger problem, of which sexual harassment is only a symptom.
sre_ops 11y ago
That's because your mother was not a special little snowflake who thought the entire world always revolved around her. I'm going to guess she did not have her parents walk her to school every day or come with her to a job interview.
Ntrails 11y ago
See - this is interesting. There is definitely a sense that in "ye olden days" people were stauncher. There's a bit of application of so called common sense where a lot of behaviours can be shut down by addressing them. Yet you instantly have to recognise that you just blamed the victim for not being more assertive, and not being able to protect themself from something that they should never have to deal with - it's not even close to acceptable behaviour. I am not unsympathetic to your point, I just kinda wish some consequences would start arising for the seemingly endless tide of entitled pricks who either don't care or don't know any better.
- mbrutsch 11y ago
  > Yet you instantly have to recognise that you just blamed the victim for not being more assertive You and every other commenter seems to think I don't understand that. Not sure why.
  - EliRivers 11y ago
    It's because people give the benefit of the doubt and don't want to think you're the kind of guy who blames the weak and powerless when bullies abuse them.
    - mbrutsch 11y ago
      My mother was anything but "weak and powerless". Sure, standing up for yourself isn't "ladylike", and not everyone is willing or able to do it, but the current assumptions are "she is weak and powerless" and "he is a big strong bully". That dynamic is easily changed, but you have to be willing to stand up for yourself.
      - EliRivers 11y ago
        This isn't about your mother. Your mother managed to push the problem onto someone else, which is nice for her. There will always be people who, for whatever reason, don't. Is your attitude that it's acceptable for these people, who do not push the problem onto someone else, to be sexually assaulted? If it's not acceptable, why is it incorrect for the victim to seek help? If I were burgled, I would seek help. If I were mugged, I would seek help. Why is it incorrect for me to seek help if I am sexually assaulted by a manager? Furthermore, given that my employer has a duty to ensure a safe workplace, why should I not upbraid my employer for failing in that duty, or advise them of the problem so that they can correct it? If I saw a dangerously loose carpet, I would tell them. If I noticed some buzzing wiring, I would tell them. Why should I not tell them that one of their employees is sexually harassing people?
sheraz 11y ago
This. This so much! My mother worked in the oil industry in the 70s and 80s, and these are the exact things she would say. (talk about male-dominated industry!) Heading off to HR only sweeps the conflict under a bureaucratic rug and never really deals with the problem effectively. Todays office culture is so toxic, and I fear it will get worse as "trigger warning" and "safe places" graduate from college campuses to the workplace. Rather, just be a stronger person and call out the bastard to is acting the fool.
- mbrutsch 11y ago
  Yep. My mom was the first woman in her industry to be certified as a plant operator; the first woman to be on the board that certifies operators, and the first woman to chair the board of certification. When asked if she'd like to be called "chairwoman", her response was "hell, no, I worked too hard to be the damn chairman!"
acdha 11y ago
You should spend less time condemning other people and more time reading what they wrote. It's great that your mother felt confident standing up to abuse. Not everyone does — and someone early in their career, knowing that their entire life trajectory can be affected by their boss's reviews and networking, is going to feel different than, say, an established figure in the field or a worker at a union shop who can expect their support. The author of this article appears to have gone to Google directly from college and it's only reasonable to worry about jeopardizing your first big job by leaving quickly. The other thing to pay attention to is the nature of the abuse. It's easy to reject some guy who makes a crude leer in front of witnesses. Her former boss was apparently more subtle than that since he managed to get at least one female coworker to take his side excusing his behavior. That's not an accident - the men who do this kind of thing usually aren't the crude street-harassers of stereotype and are smart enough to pick women who are more likely to be vulnerable while leaving as little clear evidence as possible.
- mbrutsch 11y ago
  > You should spend less time condemning other people and more time reading what they wrote. You could spend less time assuming I didn't read everything. The attitude of "saying she should stand up for herself, at least once, before going to HR" is hardly "condemning".
  - EliRivers 11y ago
    The attitude of "saying she should stand up for herself, at least once, before going to HR" is hardly "condemning". That is not the attitude you have been espousing.
  - acdha 11y ago
    Your comments have been consistently dismissive and peppered with the vocabulary to match: referring to whingers, scare quoting “victims” or using phrases like "culture of victimhood”, tossing in snide references to Tumblr, etc. Again, it's great that your mother was able to successfully break a barrier. That doesn't mean everyone will also have success as easily using the same approach or that it's ever reasonable to dismiss someone else's life experience because you think they should have been more confrontational despite knowing so little about her situation and the power dynamics involved.
icebraining 11y ago
A friend of my mother's also worked in a similar all-male environment, and had the same response to advances. It went well - until it didn't, and then it went terribly. And of course, she didn't publicly tell her "tale of woe" because at the time she wouldn't have just one guy telling her she shared the blame for it, but the whole society. So she suffered in silence. Which is great, because it allowed everyone else - even years later - to pretend it didn't exist, and that people were just braver and stronger, unlike the kids these days.
leothekim 11y ago
> I read these tales of woe and wonder why people today lack the intestinal fortitude to stand up for themselves, rather than resigning themselves to the status of "victim". Interestingly enough, the author of the article never calls herself a victim or uses the word at all. Sure she was scared, and yeah we don't know what she said to her manager. But she's talking about her feelings about being sexually harassed in a very public forum, subject to all that comes with presenting your viewpoint on the internet. She's encouraging others to speak out about it, presumably to find the "intestinal fortitude to stand up for themselves" that you find so lacking in people today. She's also gone on to co-found a company. That doesn't sound like a victim to me, or a tale of woe. I don't think sharing your feelings about being sexually harassed means you're acting like a victim. Quite the opposite. You're pointing out that this happens, and that if it happened to you then you're not alone, and it's not ok. There's strength in empathy. Your mom sounded pretty tough and she undoubtedly dealt with a lot of BS, but I'm certain she would have appreciated someone telling her that that BS was not ok. That's not being a victim or being weak, that's just being human.
lenocinor 11y ago
My mother also worked in a mostly-male field (programming) from the '60s on forward. She rebuffed people too in the same way that you are talking about -- it was the only way to survive as a female programmer at her company (she worked at the same company for her entire career). She was strong and didn't take bullshit from guys. But over time she told me that it really wore her down and made her feel negatively about work. Even if people were stronger historically, it didn't mean that the environment was ok, or that it didn't really bother them.
rrauenza 11y ago
Isn't this classic Survivorship Bias? http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

EliRivers 11y ago

When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. Good for her. What happened next was that the offender moved on to someone else, and when they found someone who wasn't so confident as your mother, sexually assaulted her. It's nice that you wonder why people don't stand up for themselves, but you should be careful that people don't accidentally think that you're ascribing blame to the victim. It is interesting that you imply that in previous generations, there were no victims. This does not tally with the evidence I have that indicates that sexual assault and other such crimes have been with us for a long time.

mbrutsch 11y ago
> What happened next was that the offender moved on to someone else, and when they found someone who wasn't so confident as your mother, sexually assaulted her. Uh, no, but I can see how your expectations have been molded to believe this is the only possible "thing that happened next". > but you should be careful that people don't accidentally think that you're ascribing blame to the victim. No accident. The "victim" shares the responsibility of standing up for themselves. This culture of victimhood has helped no one but Tumblr.
- EliRivers 11y ago
  Uh, no, but I can see how your expectations have been molded to believe this is the only possible "thing that happened next". Do you think your mother was so special that a man who attempted to sexually assault her tried it that one time only, on her only? While it's not impossible, the balance of probability very much suggests that a man willing to try this on your mother is willing to try this on other women as well. As an aside, this is a text interface. There is no need to represent in text exactly what comes out of your mouth. You need not begin your sentences with "Uh". Why do you place the word "victim" in quotes? Do you suggest that they are not victims?
- fsloth 11y ago
  "No accident. The "victim" shares the responsibility of standing up for themselves. This culture of victimhood has helped no one but Tumblr." A sexual harassment is analogous to a situation where a person hits another person, the other person fails to duck/block and gets hit in the face. I really can't see how the victim could be responsible for getting hurt. The fact that some people have practiced the art of boxing and could have avoided it easily does not change this situation. Person-to-person interaction is quite different from feeling victimized due to a general phenomena.
  - mbrutsch 11y ago
    "You have a nice ass" == "a punch in the face"
    - fsloth 11y ago
      Psychological pain is as bad as physical. I was 'merely asked for a beer' once by a big hairy guy who had stalked me in a public swimming area. And I'm a straight male. I can tell you, sexual harassment is kinda like porn - you know what it is when you feel it.
js8 11y ago
> It's nice that you wonder why people don't stand up for themselves It also may be that people today don't want to stand up for themselves because they risk that the other party will play victim. There is this other comment which says that if she punched him, she would risk an assault accusation. Maybe it's the whole "somebody has to be a victim" mentality? Maybe it's lot less clear cut in most cases. I have to say, I would much prefer women to simply slap the men who do these uncomfortable things. I don't see anything wrong with it. Now if this would escalate afterwards, perhaps then should courts (or other institutions) be involved. > you should be careful that people don't accidentally think that you're ascribing blame to the victim I don't agree, the people who think that are the ones making an error, and we shouldn't accommodate them. How can we have an honest discussion about what is moral and what not, if we have the need to blame somebody? The blame can only come after it is decided what action is immoral, and understanding circumstances. Assigning who is a victim in advance prevents this understanding. > It is interesting that you imply that in previous generations, there were no victims I don't think he does, it's the faulty reasoning of yours (as you say in the previous sentence) that leads to conclusion that there is always 100% victim and 100% perpetrator. > the evidence I have that indicates that sexual assault and other such crimes have been with us for a long time I agree, that is very much true. But there is also other side of the coin, people (of both sexes!) are taking risks to get good sexual partners, it's just human nature. Ignoring the fact that people sometimes risk (and it fails!) in the interest of declaring somebody a victim does no good either. I mean, even if you move the boundary of what is acceptable in society (in either direction), there will always be people who will risk to cross the boundary, because that risk pays off. So I am not sure what is bigger involvement of institutions in these matters going to resolve. It's one of the blind spots of left and feminism (I am leftist), we don't want to hear about people who do take risks (because it's slightly irrational, after all), because our ideology cannot deal with them in any meaningful way. And personally, I see the mere existence of bosses (and human social hierarchies in general) as a bigger problem, of which sexual harassment is only a symptom.

sre_ops 11y ago

That's because your mother was not a special little snowflake who thought the entire world always revolved around her. I'm going to guess she did not have her parents walk her to school every day or come with her to a job interview.

Ntrails 11y ago

See - this is interesting. There is definitely a sense that in "ye olden days" people were stauncher. There's a bit of application of so called common sense where a lot of behaviours can be shut down by addressing them. Yet you instantly have to recognise that you just blamed the victim for not being more assertive, and not being able to protect themself from something that they should never have to deal with - it's not even close to acceptable behaviour. I am not unsympathetic to your point, I just kinda wish some consequences would start arising for the seemingly endless tide of entitled pricks who either don't care or don't know any better.

mbrutsch 11y ago
> Yet you instantly have to recognise that you just blamed the victim for not being more assertive You and every other commenter seems to think I don't understand that. Not sure why.
- EliRivers 11y ago
  It's because people give the benefit of the doubt and don't want to think you're the kind of guy who blames the weak and powerless when bullies abuse them.
  - mbrutsch 11y ago
    My mother was anything but "weak and powerless". Sure, standing up for yourself isn't "ladylike", and not everyone is willing or able to do it, but the current assumptions are "she is weak and powerless" and "he is a big strong bully". That dynamic is easily changed, but you have to be willing to stand up for yourself.
    - EliRivers 11y ago
      This isn't about your mother. Your mother managed to push the problem onto someone else, which is nice for her. There will always be people who, for whatever reason, don't. Is your attitude that it's acceptable for these people, who do not push the problem onto someone else, to be sexually assaulted? If it's not acceptable, why is it incorrect for the victim to seek help? If I were burgled, I would seek help. If I were mugged, I would seek help. Why is it incorrect for me to seek help if I am sexually assaulted by a manager? Furthermore, given that my employer has a duty to ensure a safe workplace, why should I not upbraid my employer for failing in that duty, or advise them of the problem so that they can correct it? If I saw a dangerously loose carpet, I would tell them. If I noticed some buzzing wiring, I would tell them. Why should I not tell them that one of their employees is sexually harassing people?

sheraz 11y ago

This. This so much! My mother worked in the oil industry in the 70s and 80s, and these are the exact things she would say. (talk about male-dominated industry!) Heading off to HR only sweeps the conflict under a bureaucratic rug and never really deals with the problem effectively. Todays office culture is so toxic, and I fear it will get worse as "trigger warning" and "safe places" graduate from college campuses to the workplace. Rather, just be a stronger person and call out the bastard to is acting the fool.

mbrutsch 11y ago
Yep. My mom was the first woman in her industry to be certified as a plant operator; the first woman to be on the board that certifies operators, and the first woman to chair the board of certification. When asked if she'd like to be called "chairwoman", her response was "hell, no, I worked too hard to be the damn chairman!"

acdha 11y ago

You should spend less time condemning other people and more time reading what they wrote. It's great that your mother felt confident standing up to abuse. Not everyone does — and someone early in their career, knowing that their entire life trajectory can be affected by their boss's reviews and networking, is going to feel different than, say, an established figure in the field or a worker at a union shop who can expect their support. The author of this article appears to have gone to Google directly from college and it's only reasonable to worry about jeopardizing your first big job by leaving quickly. The other thing to pay attention to is the nature of the abuse. It's easy to reject some guy who makes a crude leer in front of witnesses. Her former boss was apparently more subtle than that since he managed to get at least one female coworker to take his side excusing his behavior. That's not an accident - the men who do this kind of thing usually aren't the crude street-harassers of stereotype and are smart enough to pick women who are more likely to be vulnerable while leaving as little clear evidence as possible.

mbrutsch 11y ago
> You should spend less time condemning other people and more time reading what they wrote. You could spend less time assuming I didn't read everything. The attitude of "saying she should stand up for herself, at least once, before going to HR" is hardly "condemning".
- EliRivers 11y ago
  The attitude of "saying she should stand up for herself, at least once, before going to HR" is hardly "condemning". That is not the attitude you have been espousing.
- acdha 11y ago
  Your comments have been consistently dismissive and peppered with the vocabulary to match: referring to whingers, scare quoting “victims” or using phrases like "culture of victimhood”, tossing in snide references to Tumblr, etc. Again, it's great that your mother was able to successfully break a barrier. That doesn't mean everyone will also have success as easily using the same approach or that it's ever reasonable to dismiss someone else's life experience because you think they should have been more confrontational despite knowing so little about her situation and the power dynamics involved.

icebraining 11y ago

A friend of my mother's also worked in a similar all-male environment, and had the same response to advances. It went well - until it didn't, and then it went terribly. And of course, she didn't publicly tell her "tale of woe" because at the time she wouldn't have just one guy telling her she shared the blame for it, but the whole society. So she suffered in silence. Which is great, because it allowed everyone else - even years later - to pretend it didn't exist, and that people were just braver and stronger, unlike the kids these days.

leothekim 11y ago

> I read these tales of woe and wonder why people today lack the intestinal fortitude to stand up for themselves, rather than resigning themselves to the status of "victim". Interestingly enough, the author of the article never calls herself a victim or uses the word at all. Sure she was scared, and yeah we don't know what she said to her manager. But she's talking about her feelings about being sexually harassed in a very public forum, subject to all that comes with presenting your viewpoint on the internet. She's encouraging others to speak out about it, presumably to find the "intestinal fortitude to stand up for themselves" that you find so lacking in people today. She's also gone on to co-found a company. That doesn't sound like a victim to me, or a tale of woe. I don't think sharing your feelings about being sexually harassed means you're acting like a victim. Quite the opposite. You're pointing out that this happens, and that if it happened to you then you're not alone, and it's not ok. There's strength in empathy. Your mom sounded pretty tough and she undoubtedly dealt with a lot of BS, but I'm certain she would have appreciated someone telling her that that BS was not ok. That's not being a victim or being weak, that's just being human.

lenocinor 11y ago

My mother also worked in a mostly-male field (programming) from the '60s on forward. She rebuffed people too in the same way that you are talking about -- it was the only way to survive as a female programmer at her company (she worked at the same company for her entire career). She was strong and didn't take bullshit from guys. But over time she told me that it really wore her down and made her feel negatively about work. Even if people were stronger historically, it didn't mean that the environment was ok, or that it didn't really bother them.

rrauenza 11y ago

Isn't this classic Survivorship Bias? http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias