7 ms·

Hey, author of the article here. I'm happy to answer any questions if anybody's got any.

by mrborgen 11y ago

chipsanddip 11y ago
Hey, great article. Can you elaborate on the second paragraph please?
- mrborgen 11y ago
  Regarding salary compared to doctors? It seems better than it is. In Norway, starting salary for doctors is about the same as anyone with a masters degree.
jonesb6 11y ago
When I dropped out of college to start working in tech I spoke with one of my professors who urged me to do a bootcamp instead (he had some kind of loose affiliation with it) and was able to spew off some impressive statistics, 90%+ employment rate, amazing salaries, etc. I told him that moment that there was no way those statistics were honest, at the very least they were surely either maintaining ludicrous acceptance standards (only accepting experienced developers who already had hiring potential) or were using loose interpretations of the words "employment" and "salary" where a job was a gig and perks got attributed dollar sign values etc. I did not go the bootcamp route and to this day maintain the same opinion, the value of bootcamps is dubious at best and a cash grab similar to for-profit education in the United States at worst. And finally I'm extremely cynical of "that one success story that proves x was a good idea and you should do it too". Although I found your article very thoughtful, I can't help but draw connections between "That one new dieting trick that helped Larry lose 20 lbs in six weeks!", and "That coding boot camp that directly led me to make more then my doctor friend". Any thoughts on my skepticism, given that you've actually done one? Again thoughtful article, it makes me feel bad for shooting down bootcamps. [1]: http://www.skilledup.com/articles/bootcamps-san-francisco http://www.skilledup.com/articles/bootcamps-san-francisco
- hox 11y ago
  As a hiring manager who has hired from boot camps, I view boot camps simply as an organized medium to encourage career change into tech. They are not unlike undergraduate computer science programs - neither program is required to start a career in tech, but some people need organization and a clear path to get there. Sometimes a little guidance and networking enables an individual to excel where they might otherwise find themselves lost. Boot camps can provide this stability, as long as the program isn't misguided. In the end, it's down to the individual to make their career. I would never hire blind from a boot camp.
  - enraged_camel 11y ago
    Completing them also signals dedication and a strong work ethic, which are very important qualities to have in programming, especially when starting out.
- mrborgen 11y ago
  I do agree that one persons success with something (getting a job, losing weight etc) isn't a very good prediction on most people's result using the same technique. And yes, I don't think all aspiring developers should do a bootcamp either. It wont replace a CS degree, and there are tons of ways to become a developers just using online tools/courses. My motive with this article isn't to encourage more people to go to bootcamps, but help those who want to go do bootcamps do better research before they apply, as there are a lot of bad bootcamps out there. Given the lack of web developers and demand for the skill, I don't doubt that some schools have 90 percent hiring rate.
  - scottwhudson 11y ago
    I applied to a bootcamp in Austin a few years back that was boasting about its insanely high placement rate, so I did a little research. They gave all students a "developer intern" title or something similar and told them to go update their LinkedIn profiles. A quick search on LinkedIn showed that they were including people who failed at getting engineering gigs and went back to their old jobs in their placement figures, which seemed super misleading. I messaged a few grads that didn't have developer titles and got some very sobering responses. I don't blame bootcamps for not getting everyone hired, but touting these ridiculous figures with hooks like "our avg dev grad makes $75k straight out of our program" seems to incentivize people into thinking there's a short path to solid pay, and not emphasizing how hard the work is. It just felt so much like a miniature for-profit program that I pulled my application and got a job after building some stuff on my own.
salmonet 11y ago
How was the transition to an actual company as a boot camp grad? Did you feel like the other developers saw you as a second-class citizen?
- mrborgen 11y ago
  I did not; I feel I'm only judged by the work I do, not my background. Though the transition was a bit hard, as our product & codebase is much bigger than what I was used to. Plus there's so much setup and various tools being used in the codebase which I don't really know anything about. Compared to my projects at Founders and Coders, where I pretty much knew most of the codebase of our projects. As for the actual coding; my React & Javascript learning curve has been steep, but manageble. If you'll get from 0 to half professional, you're also able to go from half professional to professional.
mikehollinger 11y ago
What sort of projects do you take on now that you couldn't take on or didn't have the chance to take on prior to your coursework? In addition - what's a typical day, an "awesome" day, and a "dreadful" day in your job?
- mrborgen 11y ago
  I would simply not have been able to do the work I'm doing. Awesome day: I get to start building a whole new feature on our product, features that'll make a difference for our customers. No days are actually dreadful, but it's not very fun get assigned to bug fixing. This normally involves digging through old code I know nothing about (in various different files) and trying to understand the functionality and struggle my way through fixing it.
  - mikehollinger 11y ago
    So prior to your coursework, what work were you able to do, and afterward, you're able to work with certain frameworks more effectively? Write code from scratch more effectively? Do design independently?
    - mrborgen 11y ago
      Prior: knew some jQuery & JS, a little bit of Python. Did not know how to use Ajax, setup a server. Generally bad algorithm skills. Knew nothing about Node & React. What I learned at FAC is well documented in this article: https://medium.com/learning-new-stuff/from-non-technical-to-hired-in-5-months-d010f601b1bc#.dk3cugmjj https://medium.com/learning-new-stuff/from-non-technical-to-...
  - Zelphyr 11y ago
    Word to the wise: fix those bugs. Digging into that old code will teach you a ton about coding and your product. Yeah, it can be painful at first but you may find it to be just as rewarding as writing new code in time.
bjacks 11y ago
It's Recurse Center, not Resource Center!
- brudgers 11y ago
  It's not a bootcamp either.

Hey, author of the article here. I'm happy to answer any questions if anybody's got any.

chipsanddip 11y ago

Hey, great article. Can you elaborate on the second paragraph please?

mrborgen 11y ago
Regarding salary compared to doctors? It seems better than it is. In Norway, starting salary for doctors is about the same as anyone with a masters degree.

jonesb6 11y ago

When I dropped out of college to start working in tech I spoke with one of my professors who urged me to do a bootcamp instead (he had some kind of loose affiliation with it) and was able to spew off some impressive statistics, 90%+ employment rate, amazing salaries, etc. I told him that moment that there was no way those statistics were honest, at the very least they were surely either maintaining ludicrous acceptance standards (only accepting experienced developers who already had hiring potential) or were using loose interpretations of the words "employment" and "salary" where a job was a gig and perks got attributed dollar sign values etc. I did not go the bootcamp route and to this day maintain the same opinion, the value of bootcamps is dubious at best and a cash grab similar to for-profit education in the United States at worst. And finally I'm extremely cynical of "that one success story that proves x was a good idea and you should do it too". Although I found your article very thoughtful, I can't help but draw connections between "That one new dieting trick that helped Larry lose 20 lbs in six weeks!", and "That coding boot camp that directly led me to make more then my doctor friend". Any thoughts on my skepticism, given that you've actually done one? Again thoughtful article, it makes me feel bad for shooting down bootcamps. [1]: http://www.skilledup.com/articles/bootcamps-san-francisco http://www.skilledup.com/articles/bootcamps-san-francisco

hox 11y ago
As a hiring manager who has hired from boot camps, I view boot camps simply as an organized medium to encourage career change into tech. They are not unlike undergraduate computer science programs - neither program is required to start a career in tech, but some people need organization and a clear path to get there. Sometimes a little guidance and networking enables an individual to excel where they might otherwise find themselves lost. Boot camps can provide this stability, as long as the program isn't misguided. In the end, it's down to the individual to make their career. I would never hire blind from a boot camp.
- enraged_camel 11y ago
  Completing them also signals dedication and a strong work ethic, which are very important qualities to have in programming, especially when starting out.
mrborgen 11y ago
I do agree that one persons success with something (getting a job, losing weight etc) isn't a very good prediction on most people's result using the same technique. And yes, I don't think all aspiring developers should do a bootcamp either. It wont replace a CS degree, and there are tons of ways to become a developers just using online tools/courses. My motive with this article isn't to encourage more people to go to bootcamps, but help those who want to go do bootcamps do better research before they apply, as there are a lot of bad bootcamps out there. Given the lack of web developers and demand for the skill, I don't doubt that some schools have 90 percent hiring rate.
- scottwhudson 11y ago
  I applied to a bootcamp in Austin a few years back that was boasting about its insanely high placement rate, so I did a little research. They gave all students a "developer intern" title or something similar and told them to go update their LinkedIn profiles. A quick search on LinkedIn showed that they were including people who failed at getting engineering gigs and went back to their old jobs in their placement figures, which seemed super misleading. I messaged a few grads that didn't have developer titles and got some very sobering responses. I don't blame bootcamps for not getting everyone hired, but touting these ridiculous figures with hooks like "our avg dev grad makes $75k straight out of our program" seems to incentivize people into thinking there's a short path to solid pay, and not emphasizing how hard the work is. It just felt so much like a miniature for-profit program that I pulled my application and got a job after building some stuff on my own.

salmonet 11y ago

How was the transition to an actual company as a boot camp grad? Did you feel like the other developers saw you as a second-class citizen?

mrborgen 11y ago
I did not; I feel I'm only judged by the work I do, not my background. Though the transition was a bit hard, as our product & codebase is much bigger than what I was used to. Plus there's so much setup and various tools being used in the codebase which I don't really know anything about. Compared to my projects at Founders and Coders, where I pretty much knew most of the codebase of our projects. As for the actual coding; my React & Javascript learning curve has been steep, but manageble. If you'll get from 0 to half professional, you're also able to go from half professional to professional.

mikehollinger 11y ago

What sort of projects do you take on now that you couldn't take on or didn't have the chance to take on prior to your coursework? In addition - what's a typical day, an "awesome" day, and a "dreadful" day in your job?

mrborgen 11y ago
I would simply not have been able to do the work I'm doing. Awesome day: I get to start building a whole new feature on our product, features that'll make a difference for our customers. No days are actually dreadful, but it's not very fun get assigned to bug fixing. This normally involves digging through old code I know nothing about (in various different files) and trying to understand the functionality and struggle my way through fixing it.
- mikehollinger 11y ago
  So prior to your coursework, what work were you able to do, and afterward, you're able to work with certain frameworks more effectively? Write code from scratch more effectively? Do design independently?
  - mrborgen 11y ago
    Prior: knew some jQuery & JS, a little bit of Python. Did not know how to use Ajax, setup a server. Generally bad algorithm skills. Knew nothing about Node & React. What I learned at FAC is well documented in this article: https://medium.com/learning-new-stuff/from-non-technical-to-hired-in-5-months-d010f601b1bc#.dk3cugmjj https://medium.com/learning-new-stuff/from-non-technical-to-...
- Zelphyr 11y ago
  Word to the wise: fix those bugs. Digging into that old code will teach you a ton about coding and your product. Yeah, it can be painful at first but you may find it to be just as rewarding as writing new code in time.

bjacks 11y ago

It's Recurse Center, not Resource Center!

brudgers 11y ago
It's not a bootcamp either.