5 ms·

Is this really a problem with Silicon Valley? I think it's an universal problem you'll find in all industries.

by AznHisoka 11y ago

moomin 11y ago
Women who leave seem to think it's worse in tech. Pretty solid data point.
- Ma8ee 11y ago
  It's probably worse in all sectors where women are a small minority.
  - aikah 11y ago
    > It's probably worse in all sectors where women are a small minority. It would be interesting to see if the data supports that statement. Is there less sexual harassment in education or medical professions where women are the majority ? According to my experience, I don't think so.
- lagadu 11y ago
  That's a pretty terrible data point because of how biased it is. It's like saying that everyone who abandoned a certain film halfway says the film is bad and concluding that most people in general hate the film: your data points are coming from a group who almost exclusively hated the film in the first place: they're not representative of the entire population.
  - moomin 11y ago
    Well, Ashe Dryden's pretty much debunked this whole line of reasoning better than I ever can. So I'll point you at that https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/dissent-unheard-of https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/dissent-unheard-of If you're still unconvinced, you might want to start examining your own sample bias.
    - lagadu 11y ago
      Having read the article, nothing there explains why you feel that using a sub-group that self-selected for a particular characteristic we're examining is a better sample of a population than a randomly selected one. As I re-read the paragraph I just wrote above, I can't feel but be amused by your suggestion that I should examine my own sample bias despite your blind defense of your own; in other words: your presumption that somehow yours is "better" or "truer".
      - moomin 11y ago
        You've already got the randomly selected sample, it's linked to in the original article. The figure was 60%. You've got the article explaining why there's a discrepancy between the number of public leavers and the numbers in the study. This isn't some matter of moral equivalence or even intellectual debate, no matter how much you would like it to be. But I can see we're unlikely to make much progress on this front.
        facepalm 11y ago
        Actually those 60% were not from a random sample.
- facepalm 11y ago
  What kind of comparison do "they" have, though? And is it more than a couple of anecdotes amplified by the popularity of the medium they were posted on? Also consider we are on a tech site, so we are more likely to consume tech media which is more likely to report harassment of women in tech.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
nervousvarun 11y ago
Probably relevant that Silicon Valley is disproportionately male vs. "all industries".
rplnt 11y ago
I'm starting to think that I am (or we, men, are) blind to this. If it happens as much as is reported (I don not work in SV, but I'd guess Eastern-ish Europe would be worse), then it must happen before out eyes, or even worse, we are the ones doing it. I honestly can't think of such incident, but this suggest that there were many that I simply ignored, didn't see them as such. edit: To make it clear, I definitely didn't witness incidents like kissing and lap sitting.. but more subtle ones might come under my radar.
- aikah 11y ago
  > I'm starting to think that I am (or we, men, are) blind to this. Nobody's blind to that. Most of the time it's just that nobody wants to get involved in cases like that. For all one knows ones could be accused of doing nothing about it. So people prefer "not to see" and "not to know", just like in blatant cases of racism at work. So it's not blindness , it's just individualism. > but I'd guess Eastern-ish Europe would be worse Why just Eastern Europe ? I'm French and sexual harassment is an endemic issue. Same in Italy. We might have stronger laws against it but good luck when it comes to proving it happened in a court of law.
  - mtrimpe 11y ago
    It's not really useful to single out Eastern Europe. The problem is everywhere; its manifestations are just different. Eastern Europe for example has much less of a glass ceiling problem but gender roles are stricter and but racism and homophobia are orders of magnitude worse. In the Dutch workplace (where I'm from) homophobia is for example much less of an issue; but racism is still pretty ingrained and while there are less strict divisions in gender roles but the glass ceiling for women is much stronger.
- acdha 11y ago
  The main thing to remember is that much of it is done by men who are smart enough not to be easily caught. The rest of us don't see things happening because they're careful not to have witnesses, or try to have some plausible excuse. That leads to the other side of how toxic this is: if you're harassed, how do you know who's safe to tell? It's probably safer not to tell other men if you don't want to risk finding out that they're part of the problem or just unsympathetic without unrealistic levels of proof.
nikcub 11y ago
The universal rate of sexual harassment of females is 31%[1] in Silicon Valley it is 60%[2]. The restaurant industry is notorious for sexual harassment and their rate of harassment from superiors is 66%[3] - about par with Silicon Valley. So, yes, it is a problem in Silicon Valley - and ignorance of the severity of the problem is a large part of the problem (you'll find a lot of research on sexual harassment in other industries but very little on tech and SV in particular). [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20071018041054/http://www.sexualharassmentsupport.org/SHworkplace.html https://web.archive.org/web/20071018041054/http://www.sexual... [2] http://elephantinthevalley.com/ http://elephantinthevalley.com/ [3] http://rocunited.org/pr-the-glass-floor-report/ http://rocunited.org/pr-the-glass-floor-report/
- Joeboy 11y ago
  The second statistic says it's about "unwanted sexual advances", not "sexual harassment". Not being interested isn't the same as being sexually harassed. Edit: The way the page is written makes it hard to understand what most of it actually means, but if I interpret it correctly 50% of 65% of 60% received sexual advances from a superior more than once. So about 20% had experience of a boss failing to take a hint.
  - cmdkeen 11y ago
    Unwanted sexual advances "from a superior" is the bit that makes it harassment. You can ask out a co-worker but you don't ask out people where there is a power imbalance in the relationship, it's not rocket science.
    - Joeboy 11y ago
      Is Bill Gates' relationship with Melinda Gates sexual harassment?
      - cmdkeen 11y ago
        "The owner of the company I work for approached me in the car park and asked me to dinner, it made me feel incredibly uncomfortable and I felt my career depending upon saying yes" "The owner of the company I work for approached me in the car park and asked me to dinner, I said to ask again nearer the time" Fortunately for Bill Melinda went with option 2. Had she gone with option 1... Unfortunately the problem is that it relies on the other person, which is why many places have policies about this sort of thing.
vog 11y ago
The fraction of women in IT is very low, and has been for decades. That's the obvious, solid data point that most people seem to ignore.
onion2k 11y ago
All the more reason why it's important to recognise it's a problem in Silicon Valley and to start fixing it. Leading is better than following, right?
mbrutsch 11y ago
My mother worked in an all-male field starting in the 1970s; they didn't even have a women's bathroom at the plant when she started. When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. I don't see where she says she ever even hinted to the manager that his actions were inappropriate. I suspect a single "cut that shit out, stop acting like a damn teenager" might well have stopped this problem in its tracks. But we'll never know. I read these tales of woe and wonder why people today lack the intestinal fortitude to stand up for themselves, rather than resigning themselves to the status of "victim".
- EliRivers 11y ago
  When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. Good for her. What happened next was that the offender moved on to someone else, and when they found someone who wasn't so confident as your mother, sexually assaulted her. It's nice that you wonder why people don't stand up for themselves, but you should be careful that people don't accidentally think that you're ascribing blame to the victim. It is interesting that you imply that in previous generations, there were no victims. This does not tally with the evidence I have that indicates that sexual assault and other such crimes have been with us for a long time.
  - mbrutsch 11y ago
    > What happened next was that the offender moved on to someone else, and when they found someone who wasn't so confident as your mother, sexually assaulted her. Uh, no, but I can see how your expectations have been molded to believe this is the only possible "thing that happened next". > but you should be careful that people don't accidentally think that you're ascribing blame to the victim. No accident. The "victim" shares the responsibility of standing up for themselves. This culture of victimhood has helped no one but Tumblr.
    - EliRivers 11y ago
      Uh, no, but I can see how your expectations have been molded to believe this is the only possible "thing that happened next". Do you think your mother was so special that a man who attempted to sexually assault her tried it that one time only, on her only? While it's not impossible, the balance of probability very much suggests that a man willing to try this on your mother is willing to try this on other women as well. As an aside, this is a text interface. There is no need to represent in text exactly what comes out of your mouth. You need not begin your sentences with "Uh". Why do you place the word "victim" in quotes? Do you suggest that they are not victims?
mcculley 11y ago
I suspect that while Silicon Valley has slightly more instances of this behavior than other industries (due to lots of startups running without adult supervision), the perception is amplified by the victims being more likely to have blogs or other ways to speak up about it.
- mcculley 11y ago
  I'm intrigued by the downvote. I've seen lots of misogynism in less technical industries and much less in some large mature technology organizations. Does the downvoter disagree that the behavior in Silicon Valley gets more attention? I haven't been in Silicon Valley myself in over ten years, so I don't know what it's like there. I just see lots of bad behavior in other regions and industries that's not blogged about.

Is this really a problem with Silicon Valley? I think it's an universal problem you'll find in all industries.

moomin 11y ago

Women who leave seem to think it's worse in tech. Pretty solid data point.

Ma8ee 11y ago
It's probably worse in all sectors where women are a small minority.
- aikah 11y ago
  > It's probably worse in all sectors where women are a small minority. It would be interesting to see if the data supports that statement. Is there less sexual harassment in education or medical professions where women are the majority ? According to my experience, I don't think so.
lagadu 11y ago
That's a pretty terrible data point because of how biased it is. It's like saying that everyone who abandoned a certain film halfway says the film is bad and concluding that most people in general hate the film: your data points are coming from a group who almost exclusively hated the film in the first place: they're not representative of the entire population.
- moomin 11y ago
  Well, Ashe Dryden's pretty much debunked this whole line of reasoning better than I ever can. So I'll point you at that https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/dissent-unheard-of https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/dissent-unheard-of If you're still unconvinced, you might want to start examining your own sample bias.
  - lagadu 11y ago
    Having read the article, nothing there explains why you feel that using a sub-group that self-selected for a particular characteristic we're examining is a better sample of a population than a randomly selected one. As I re-read the paragraph I just wrote above, I can't feel but be amused by your suggestion that I should examine my own sample bias despite your blind defense of your own; in other words: your presumption that somehow yours is "better" or "truer".
    - moomin 11y ago
      You've already got the randomly selected sample, it's linked to in the original article. The figure was 60%. You've got the article explaining why there's a discrepancy between the number of public leavers and the numbers in the study. This isn't some matter of moral equivalence or even intellectual debate, no matter how much you would like it to be. But I can see we're unlikely to make much progress on this front.
      - facepalm 11y ago
        Actually those 60% were not from a random sample.
facepalm 11y ago
What kind of comparison do "they" have, though? And is it more than a couple of anecdotes amplified by the popularity of the medium they were posted on? Also consider we are on a tech site, so we are more likely to consume tech media which is more likely to report harassment of women in tech.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

nervousvarun 11y ago

Probably relevant that Silicon Valley is disproportionately male vs. "all industries".

rplnt 11y ago

I'm starting to think that I am (or we, men, are) blind to this. If it happens as much as is reported (I don not work in SV, but I'd guess Eastern-ish Europe would be worse), then it must happen before out eyes, or even worse, we are the ones doing it. I honestly can't think of such incident, but this suggest that there were many that I simply ignored, didn't see them as such. edit: To make it clear, I definitely didn't witness incidents like kissing and lap sitting.. but more subtle ones might come under my radar.

aikah 11y ago
> I'm starting to think that I am (or we, men, are) blind to this. Nobody's blind to that. Most of the time it's just that nobody wants to get involved in cases like that. For all one knows ones could be accused of doing nothing about it. So people prefer "not to see" and "not to know", just like in blatant cases of racism at work. So it's not blindness , it's just individualism. > but I'd guess Eastern-ish Europe would be worse Why just Eastern Europe ? I'm French and sexual harassment is an endemic issue. Same in Italy. We might have stronger laws against it but good luck when it comes to proving it happened in a court of law.
- mtrimpe 11y ago
  It's not really useful to single out Eastern Europe. The problem is everywhere; its manifestations are just different. Eastern Europe for example has much less of a glass ceiling problem but gender roles are stricter and but racism and homophobia are orders of magnitude worse. In the Dutch workplace (where I'm from) homophobia is for example much less of an issue; but racism is still pretty ingrained and while there are less strict divisions in gender roles but the glass ceiling for women is much stronger.
acdha 11y ago
The main thing to remember is that much of it is done by men who are smart enough not to be easily caught. The rest of us don't see things happening because they're careful not to have witnesses, or try to have some plausible excuse. That leads to the other side of how toxic this is: if you're harassed, how do you know who's safe to tell? It's probably safer not to tell other men if you don't want to risk finding out that they're part of the problem or just unsympathetic without unrealistic levels of proof.

nikcub 11y ago

The universal rate of sexual harassment of females is 31%[1] in Silicon Valley it is 60%[2]. The restaurant industry is notorious for sexual harassment and their rate of harassment from superiors is 66%[3] - about par with Silicon Valley. So, yes, it is a problem in Silicon Valley - and ignorance of the severity of the problem is a large part of the problem (you'll find a lot of research on sexual harassment in other industries but very little on tech and SV in particular). [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20071018041054/http://www.sexualharassmentsupport.org/SHworkplace.html https://web.archive.org/web/20071018041054/http://www.sexual... [2] http://elephantinthevalley.com/ http://elephantinthevalley.com/ [3] http://rocunited.org/pr-the-glass-floor-report/ http://rocunited.org/pr-the-glass-floor-report/

Joeboy 11y ago
The second statistic says it's about "unwanted sexual advances", not "sexual harassment". Not being interested isn't the same as being sexually harassed. Edit: The way the page is written makes it hard to understand what most of it actually means, but if I interpret it correctly 50% of 65% of 60% received sexual advances from a superior more than once. So about 20% had experience of a boss failing to take a hint.
- cmdkeen 11y ago
  Unwanted sexual advances "from a superior" is the bit that makes it harassment. You can ask out a co-worker but you don't ask out people where there is a power imbalance in the relationship, it's not rocket science.
  - Joeboy 11y ago
    Is Bill Gates' relationship with Melinda Gates sexual harassment?
    - cmdkeen 11y ago
      "The owner of the company I work for approached me in the car park and asked me to dinner, it made me feel incredibly uncomfortable and I felt my career depending upon saying yes" "The owner of the company I work for approached me in the car park and asked me to dinner, I said to ask again nearer the time" Fortunately for Bill Melinda went with option 2. Had she gone with option 1... Unfortunately the problem is that it relies on the other person, which is why many places have policies about this sort of thing.

vog 11y ago

The fraction of women in IT is very low, and has been for decades. That's the obvious, solid data point that most people seem to ignore.

onion2k 11y ago

All the more reason why it's important to recognise it's a problem in Silicon Valley and to start fixing it. Leading is better than following, right?

mbrutsch 11y ago

My mother worked in an all-male field starting in the 1970s; they didn't even have a women's bathroom at the plant when she started. When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. I don't see where she says she ever even hinted to the manager that his actions were inappropriate. I suspect a single "cut that shit out, stop acting like a damn teenager" might well have stopped this problem in its tracks. But we'll never know. I read these tales of woe and wonder why people today lack the intestinal fortitude to stand up for themselves, rather than resigning themselves to the status of "victim".

EliRivers 11y ago
When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. Good for her. What happened next was that the offender moved on to someone else, and when they found someone who wasn't so confident as your mother, sexually assaulted her. It's nice that you wonder why people don't stand up for themselves, but you should be careful that people don't accidentally think that you're ascribing blame to the victim. It is interesting that you imply that in previous generations, there were no victims. This does not tally with the evidence I have that indicates that sexual assault and other such crimes have been with us for a long time.
- mbrutsch 11y ago
  > What happened next was that the offender moved on to someone else, and when they found someone who wasn't so confident as your mother, sexually assaulted her. Uh, no, but I can see how your expectations have been molded to believe this is the only possible "thing that happened next". > but you should be careful that people don't accidentally think that you're ascribing blame to the victim. No accident. The "victim" shares the responsibility of standing up for themselves. This culture of victimhood has helped no one but Tumblr.
  - EliRivers 11y ago
    Uh, no, but I can see how your expectations have been molded to believe this is the only possible "thing that happened next". Do you think your mother was so special that a man who attempted to sexually assault her tried it that one time only, on her only? While it's not impossible, the balance of probability very much suggests that a man willing to try this on your mother is willing to try this on other women as well. As an aside, this is a text interface. There is no need to represent in text exactly what comes out of your mouth. You need not begin your sentences with "Uh". Why do you place the word "victim" in quotes? Do you suggest that they are not victims?

mcculley 11y ago

I suspect that while Silicon Valley has slightly more instances of this behavior than other industries (due to lots of startups running without adult supervision), the perception is amplified by the victims being more likely to have blogs or other ways to speak up about it.

mcculley 11y ago
I'm intrigued by the downvote. I've seen lots of misogynism in less technical industries and much less in some large mature technology organizations. Does the downvoter disagree that the behavior in Silicon Valley gets more attention? I haven't been in Silicon Valley myself in over ten years, so I don't know what it's like there. I just see lots of bad behavior in other regions and industries that's not blogged about.