14 ms·

What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

180 points by AndrewDucker 11y ago

zoidb 11y ago
original - https://medium.com/@juliachou/it-s-not-your-fault-3e5ad1ccb95c#.chzsfx407 https://medium.com/@juliachou/it-s-not-your-fault-3e5ad1ccb9...
- dang 11y ago
  Previously discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10909612 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10909612.
pervycreeper 11y ago
>When I was eventually promoted on the team, I resented having doubts about its merits — was I promoted because of my abilities, or was I promoted because he was trying to apologise for his boorish behaviour? It must be awful to have a problem like that.
qb45 11y ago
> In the span of a week, I went from feeling excited and motivated about my job to feeling lethargic, anxious, and unenthused. (...) I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap, told about my manager’s sex life and virility (...) There exists a breed of narcissists who are so incapable of tolerating rejection that they will consistently ignore every sign of it. In fact, the less you are satisfied with their actions, the more they will repeat them, desperately needing to see that your displeasure was just a temporary fluke and in the end they really are those cool dudes who are never wrong and everybody just admires them. As a man I've never been asked to sit on one's lap (knock on wood), but some did give me a fair amount of trouble. It doesn't help that their delusional serf-confidence can be confused with competence by some less experienced folks and get them promoted to management roles. In fact, I'd expect their density to increase as you go up the corporate food chain.
- marincounty 11y ago
  I'm a hetrosexual male who's done everything from construction to coding. At every job I've had--workers, mainly guys, but so, so many women too, discuss their sexual life. (In all honestly, women have told me too more personal things (sexual in nature) at work, over men. The big difference is these women had no power over my career. And the difference is they weren't "hitting" on me. When I was a younger man--yes some where, but I handled the situation. (I guarantee now they are just yacking about sex, and their personal stuff.)The last thing I wanted to hear on a Monday was a story about Shirly's elder son walking in on her and her new boy friend "rattling the bed". I still can't get that image out of my head, and it's been 20 years. Actually, I have found both sexes guilty of talking about their sex life at work. It could be intimate details of the date you had on Friday night, or how your mate isn't attentive to your needs any more. I've never liked hearing personal stuff about my coworkers. Of course, I never said anything, because it was innocent conversation at the time, but if I was an attractive female, or a young attractive male, I might have thought differently. Maybe we shouldn't talk about this stuff at work. Personally, I just don't like hearing anything that personal ever. That's what therapists get paid to suffer through? I not conflating my experiences with her's; just stating we shouldn't talk about anything remotely sexual--hell--shut up about baby on the way. We see the cute baby bump, or suffer through how hard it was to fertilize the egg. (Guys like me look at it as a tragedy, not something great.) People talk way too much at work. In my experience, most are lonely and don't have close friends, and use workers as free friends, and free therapy. We don't want to hear it. The jokes are worn out. It's just done. Find friends outside of work to dazzle with your stories. I know finding friends is very hard. It's even harder, if all you have concentrated on is work since that first job out of college. And yes, some are sexual predators. I've seen them in most work places. Ive seen gay managers give special jobs to their boy Friday. I've seen pretty girls promoted--just becase they are pretty. I used to see blatatent sexual harassment, but not in the last fifteen years, but it looks like it hasn't gone away, at least at Google.
  - skj 11y ago
    Nice typo about Shirley's elder son wanking in on her... I hope?
AznHisoka 11y ago
Is this really a problem with Silicon Valley? I think it's an universal problem you'll find in all industries.
- moomin 11y ago
  Women who leave seem to think it's worse in tech. Pretty solid data point.
  - Ma8ee 11y ago
    It's probably worse in all sectors where women are a small minority.
    - aikah 11y ago
      > It's probably worse in all sectors where women are a small minority. It would be interesting to see if the data supports that statement. Is there less sexual harassment in education or medical professions where women are the majority ? According to my experience, I don't think so.
  - lagadu 11y ago
    That's a pretty terrible data point because of how biased it is. It's like saying that everyone who abandoned a certain film halfway says the film is bad and concluding that most people in general hate the film: your data points are coming from a group who almost exclusively hated the film in the first place: they're not representative of the entire population.
    - moomin 11y ago
      Well, Ashe Dryden's pretty much debunked this whole line of reasoning better than I ever can. So I'll point you at that https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/dissent-unheard-of https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/dissent-unheard-of If you're still unconvinced, you might want to start examining your own sample bias.
deleted 11y ago
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deleted 11y ago
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rplnt 11y ago
> a company well-known for its “Do no evil” culture This was their motto a decade back and what they are doing does not reflect it even remotely. I'm pretty sure they are not known for "do no evil" culture, just that the slogan is tied to them somehow.
- skj 11y ago
  That's not the slogan. It's "don't be evil." "Don't do evil" is impossible for a corporation with 50k employees. "Don't be evil" is a worthy ideal to strive for.
shallowpedantic 11y ago
I probably would've felt more sympathy for her had it not been for the fact that upon scrolling down, she still has google listed as one of her former employers! now if being at google was such a traumatic experience, why reference them in your sexual harassment letter? If it happened to me, I wouldn't list the former employer I worked for.
- skj 11y ago
  This is your complaint? How silly.
  - nahiluhmot 11y ago
    In all fairness, parent's username is shallowpedantic.
    - shallowpedantic 11y ago
      well I can't disappoint the fans! oh please, she's fine. she used it as an excuse to shamelessly plug her company, if anything it served as jet-fuel for her. I stand by my point - the company did not directly harass her but a member of the company did. If she was as hurt as she claimed to be she wouldn't ever reference google as a place where she used to work. And none of you have offered any replies of any substance, merely snide, malicious comments in an attempt to lower me to your level.
- facepalm 11y ago
  It wasn't Google that harassed her, but one of of Google's employees.
  - shallowpedantic 11y ago
    Yes, because google as a entity would've been able to kiss her on the cheek. a company isn't capable of executing the type of harassment that she is complaining about. But whatever, down-voted to hell by a community as a toxic as reddit simply because of a difference in opinion.
jneal 11y ago
I'm not going to speak directly regarding the way this individual handled this situation, but in general, if you experience any form of sexual harassment I highly recommend you speak with HR immediately following the incident. Don't allow it to escalate, things can only get worse. Even if it's your first day on the job, you should never feel speaking to HR regarding an incident is a bad idea.
- Aeolos 11y ago
  Can you really trust HR to do the right thing?
  - mtrimpe 11y ago
    Indeed; never trust HR to do the right thing. HR will choose the approach they believe minimizes risk to the company. If they believe kicking you out instead of your harasser is less risky they won't hesitate twice to do so. I can confirm that from personal experience. If you can afford it get legal advice first ... and then go to HR.
    - Cthulhu_ 11y ago
      > If you can afford it get legal advice first And if you can't, join a union (or form one if they don't exist), they can help pay for legal advice and/or have their own lawyers.
    - ruraljuror 11y ago
      I would disagree with this advice. Unless you have a good reason not to trust your particular hr department for this situation, you should put in a good faith effort. Perhaps you could argue that most hr departments are incompetent, but I cannot imagine a scenario where retaliating against an employee for reporting sexual harassment would minimize a company's risk. Also I believe most employment discrimination employees will work on a contingency basis, so you should consider reaching out to them regardless of your financial situation. I understand the constant refrain from HN of never trust hr, but I think reporting to hr could form a better foundation for a lawsuit. Feel free to contact an attorney first. That is what I would do.
ordbajsare 11y ago
>In that week, I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap... >Protect yourself and others. Report it to HR. The correct response is to punch him in the face, defend your personal space with extreme prejudice.
- gilgoomesh 11y ago
  I assume you're kidding but if you're not: you run the risk of being fired for physical assault, whether or not you're in the right. In any case, as reported in the article, people in that situation are more likely to be paralysed by shock and doubt. A blunt, self-assured response in the moment is unlikely.
  - sre_ops 11y ago
    > I assume you're kidding but if you're not: you run the risk of being fired for physical assault, whether or not you're in the right. And that's when you sue the living hell out of the company and walk away with a few million dollars.
- dhimes 11y ago
  I don't agree, but upvoting because I think it is worth discussing the idea that women get attacked like this (and that's what sexual harassment is) because the men think they can bully the women. Perhaps not a punch in the face, but a clear shove away may go a long way towards making the point. I am also suspicious of approaching HR first. Perhaps a lawyer has written about how to handle this online, especially what and how to document, how to handle any witnesses, etc., but if not I would hope my wife would talk to a lawyer first. I guarantee that HR knows how to handle the incident, but they are working on behalf of the company. That doesn't mean they are working on behalf of the manager, though, so they can be at least half-trusted (IMHO). But I would still prefer that my wife have her own source of knowledge on this situation.
  - edraferi 11y ago
    Agree. There's a clear escalation path for this kind of thing. First time something weird happens, ignore it as a possible misunderstanding / off day. Second time, make a clear verbal rejection. Third time forward, you're dealing with a pattern of clearly unwanted behavior so everything gets documented in writing and reported to HR. If HR doesn't address the situation in a week or so, bring in the lawyers.
zupreme 11y ago
I'm not so sure about this one. I think sexual harassment and direct flirtation can become confused depending on the perspective of the recipient. Men have been making advances toward women throughout history and, perhaps to a lesser extent, women do the same toward men. Far more workplace flings happen than any company (and even many employees) will admit and it often starts with one party or the other making their desires known to the other party. I've also been part of and present for many very graphic conversations in the workplace involving both sexes and none of these, to my knowledge, were never seen as harassment or reported as such. In reading the linked article the one thing I don't see is where she told the manager "No. I'm not interested. Leave me alone." Perhaps if she had simply been as direct with him as he was being with her, the entire HR fiasco could have been avoided. It's telling that the female colleague felt that she was overreacting. At no point in the article does she mention the manager touching her inappropriately, or saying anything to imply that her job or compensation depended on her accepting his advances. This honestly sounds like he was a guy who got attracted to a colleague, made steadily increasing verbal advances (which were not rebuffed), and then got blindsided by HR. I'm sure this won't be a popular view here but I think it's valid. Edit: Replaced "HR Worker" with "Colleague". As some responders pointed out it was not the HR person who told her she was overreacting (thanks for the corrections).
- thedz 11y ago
  > It's telling that the female HR person felt that she was overreacting. At no point in the article does she mention the manager touching her inappropriately, or saying anything to imply that her job or compensation depended on her accepting his advances. It was a female colleague, not HR. According to the article, HR was fully behind her, as they should be. > This honestly sounds like he was a guy who got attracted to a colleague, made steadily increasing verbal advances (which were not rebuffed), and then got blindsided by HR. Not just a colleague, a report. This is what's important. HR would have frowned on a manager making advances on his reports, if nothing else. Especially advances on a new report during her first week.
  - spoiler 11y ago
    My friend was in the same position about a year ago, and she told her boss (directly, and in private conversation) that she's not interested, after he didn't interpret a few other subtle hints. She still works there. Furthermore, she the boss and some other colleagues were cracking jokes about it during a team building event that I was invited to. Edit: I realise this is anecdotal, but it feels to me like the author of the blog post immediately assumed she's a victim and panicked. Maybe the manager should've been more observant, but pointing fingers is useless without knowing what really happened. We only have her account of the story, which is probably distorted by the discomfort she experienced. This is not to say her discomfort shouldn't be taken into account, and yes I agree that HR should've sided with her, but I don't believe he should've been seriously sanctioned either.
leaveyou 11y ago
What an uplifting story. Sexual harassment is a serious problem affecting women all over the world. I'm glad that more and more people speak up.
- exo762 11y ago
  If you think that women are somehow immune to this behaviour you are very naive. Stereotype of older women superior hitting on young men has not appeared from thin air.
  - leaveyou 11y ago
    From my wife's experience, older women superiors are way too busy making the professional life of younger women a living hell and they don't have much time and energy left to harass young men.
ck2 11y ago
In that week, I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap, told about my manager’s sex life and virility, and told that “all men go through an Asian fetish at some time” holy frack - that's insane - and no way the first time they've said these things in front of other people before with no-one challenging the behavior as unacceptable easy guide for men: if you wouldn't say it to a friend's daughter, or someone saying it to your daughter, don't say it to any woman you aren't in a personal relationship
eklavya 11y ago
Why does nobody seem to be bothered with the apologize and continue as usual outcome? Shouldn't there have been serious implications for the sexual offender?
- mollmerx 11y ago
  This. I find it surprising that the offender wasn't terminated and incomprehensible that the victim was required to continue reporting to him.
- room271 11y ago
  Yes, for the things she describes her manager should have been fired, not kept on after some kind of apology.
- Sir_Cmpwn 11y ago
  I have to write this comment pretty carefully to avoid vindicating the offender or blaming the victim. It seems to me like the victim wasn't making it clear that she was uncomfortable (this is not her fault), and perhaps the offender was picking up on signals that weren't there. The situation needed to be fixed, but the behaviour mentioned in the article could have been more flirtatious than forced. A zero tolerance policy is just a way of removing the humanity from the situation. Maybe the events weren't so severe to demand that he lose his job, has charges pressed, etc. I don't think we should be calling for his head. I am surprised that she continued to work under his management, though.
  - panic 11y ago
    It doesn't matter if it was "more flirtatious than forced". A manager should not flirt with their reports. Managers are supposed to be responsible for the growth of their employees; making an employee so uncomfortable with you that they run away from you on sight is a spectacular failure to do your job.
    - edraferi 11y ago
      Correct. It's harder to enforce judgements on this kind of thing though, because ambiguity exists about the intention. It's much easier to punish clear "do me a favor for the promotion/bonus" situations. I agree a blanket "no romance with direct reports" rule is best. I'm just astonished she didn't get an immediate transfer to another group. I would be livid if this was happening and HR didn't remove the power dynamic immediately.
bontoJR 11y ago
This problem happens in every industry, tourism and hospitality is full of these cases as far as I heard even by people I personally know. The Silicon Valley situation is more visible for the simple reason that diversity is still a problem, so having so few girls makes this a huge problem and a barrier hard to overcome for women. I feel truly sorry for all the female colleagues having troubles with bosses and colleagues harassing or also bullying them (have you ever heard somebody saying: "she's a girl, let's give her this task b/c is very trivial").
- wavefunction 11y ago
  >girls You should start by referring to female workers in SV as women.
Shic 11y ago
ew em
sonabinu 11y ago
How come the manager got away with just an apology?
auggierose 11y ago
She admits in that piece that she shouldn't have laughed at jokes that made her uncomfortable. So I suggest people/women keep themselves out of situations like this by being honest and upfront with their colleagues in the first place. If that doesn't work, go to HR. Simple as that.
isnullorempty 11y ago
What happened to the woman in the article was unacceptable _if_ she clearly signaled she wasn't interested. On the other hand some women now think "Why won't that cute guy come hit on me?, is he shy or gay?" No he is worried you will report him for harassment. Forget ever trying to date someone from work it's a minefield (as is dating in general!).
- throwaway999888 11y ago
  It's unacceptable because of the manager-subordinate relation. And you can't put the burden on women to actively signal that they are not sexually interested in a professional setting. That's at best a large distraction for them, and at worst very draining and emotionally damaging.
  - isnullorempty 11y ago
    I meant if someone show interest not all the time, men can be dumb and are unable to detect subtle hints.
    - thedz 11y ago
      Are you actually using "I'm stupid and oblivious" as an excuse?
- shinigami 11y ago
  Yes, life must be so hard without being able to date people from work.
  - isnullorempty 11y ago
    Given you spent a large chunk of your waking life at work it's a breeding ground for attractions to be formed same as school, uni etc.
throwaway19245 11y ago
I'd like to preface this comment by saying I'm not confident in my opinion, and I'm very open to discussion and to changing my stance. My understanding is that the manager's actions would likely be considered low level harassment, tipping towards misconduct considering the short duration (1 week) and minimal resolution attempts outside of HR. Definitions are hard for this subject, but my understanding is the phrase escalates with severity from misconduct->harassment->assault. I agree that the manager was in the wrong, but I worry about a culture that cannot readily distinguish the severity of conduct, and in-turn come up with an appropriate response. In this scenario, I feel going to HR was appropriate, but I also feel this writing takes an overly hostile tone, instead of one focused on improvement. I'd find this tone appropriate if there were more pushback from HR, or if harassment continued and HR wouldn't help resolve. But as far as I can tell, OP is happy with HRs response. Perhaps instead we can explore what HR can and should do to prevent self-confidence issues at the conclusion of these investigations? To me, that would be more beneficial than asking others to pursue a path which - all things being similar - results in self-doubt.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- mgbmtl 11y ago
  I understand your point of view, but I feel like we often underestimate the level of harm that some types of misconduct can cause. A workplace should never tolerate any type of harassment (and few workplaces do). It's not just the act itself, it's also the act in the current historical context (institutional inequality) and work context (workplace power inequality). Unfortunately the effects on OP are probably much bigger than we expect because of the way we are socialized, our culture, etc. Some might say that it's not the guy's fault that our society is so imbalanced, but I think we should be more conscious about this in general. To prevent the self-confidence issue, we could probably fix our education and general culture, but in the short term we could just not harass women at work. That's a pretty easy short term solution :)
enraged_camel 11y ago
I have a feeling that if your mother read this comment she would tell you to cut this shit out.
- mbrutsch 11y ago
  Perhaps. She did not live long enough to experience the "culture of victimhood" herself, so I can't say what she would have done. I do know she wasn't fond of the idea in the 70s and 80s, and regularly eschewed the notion that she was any different from any of the men with whom she worked. But the fact that she was a "quiet" feminist, that did things, rather than talking about doing things, leads me to believe you may be correct. She was not a whinger.
  - enraged_camel 11y ago
    >>"culture of victimhood" You seem to have trouble between people who play the victim for attention (which is what that phrase refers to) and those who are actually victims. Just because some victims are capable of defending themselves doesn't change anything. Your mother was a victim too.
    - mbrutsch 11y ago
      > Your mother was a victim too. Only in your mind, not in hers.
      - enraged_camel 11y ago
        And also according to the dictionary, which defines the word "victim" as: "One who is harmed by or made to suffer under a circumstance or condition: e.g. victims of war; victims of an epidemic; victims of poverty." Unless you believe she enjoyed the attentions of men, that is. In which case you would be correct.
        mbrutsch 11y ago
        1. I don't believe she "suffered", any more than the folks in this thread have "suffered". Words did not become such harmful weapons until recently. 2. I find it somewhere between amusing and horrifying that you compare war, epidemic and poverty to someone grabbing your ass at work. They are different by at least one order of magnitude.
bunkydoo 11y ago
This is why corporations won't exist in their current form by the end of the century. I firmly believe that working solo prevents every problem the workplace could possibly present. As a LGBT male I feel that even though all these companies try to prance around with rainbow flags and make racial and gender based hiring quotas - it just furthers segregation. By abandoning the fuckers in HR and fighting for your own place in this world, you get places. If anyone were to question my sexual preferences or harass me in a coffee shop, I'd clock that bastard across the face, drag him to the pavement and stomp his sorry ass. Try that at work in your sissy ass silicon valley office.
- pc86 11y ago
  I don't think the idea that corporations aren't going to exist by the end of the century has any basis in reality. What evidence do you have to suggest that? And if you could explain it without needlessly hostile phrases like "fuckers in HR" or "sissy ass," that's probably for the best.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  Well, that only works because you're physically strong. Try the same strategy as a slightly built woman and see how it works out.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
sheraz 11y ago
Office environments today are like minefields. A man never knows when his next step, word, or simple action will be misconstrued as harassment. Hold a door? Thats harassment. Wink ;-) in an email or IM? Thats harassment. Tell an off-color joke? Thats harassment. Complement female coworkers outfit? Thats harassment. Stand too close in an elevator or inline at the canteen? Thats harassment. Getting caught looking looking at a female coworkers boobs? Thats harassment. The problem is that at the end of the day it is all up to how that female employee "feels." If she is especially sensitive, then everyone around her has to walk on eggshells. Why can't anyone have a sense of humor about any of this? I think I'm going to watch 9 to 5 with Dolly Parton tonight, just to remember a time when people had a sense of humor about dealing with toxic office culture.
- smackfu 11y ago
  If you think her actual claims are not harassment, then argue that.
  - sheraz 11y ago
    I think the first problem is that harassment is a loaded term. It implies more than what actually happened. Harassment, to me, is what bill collectors and bullys do. They call you repeatedly, they post about you on social media. They follow you home. Why not call it this -- her boss is an asshole, and she didn't call him out on it.
- hluska 11y ago
  Come on, that is bullshit. Simply, don't go out of your way to be an asshole. Genuine compliments are fine. Leering is wrong. Sexually suggestive comments or winks in emails are wrong. Don't treat anyone as a lesser form of life. This is so fucking simple and it makes for a better work environment for all.
  - isnullorempty 11y ago
    So what are you supposed to do if you are attracted to someone at work, never make a move? Women need to be more forgiving and take it as a compliment, unless someone continues after a clear rejection (which is the definition of harassment).
yodsanklai 11y ago
Is the term "sexual harassement" appropriate here? It'd be interesting to hear the manager point of view on this issue. We have only one side of the story here. Maybe the manager genuinely thought this was a case of mutual flirting there. Or flirting in the workplace = sexual harassment? EDIT: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sexual+harassment http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sexual+harassm... "A key part of the definition is the use of the word unwelcome. Unwelcome or uninvited conduct or communication of a sexual nature is prohibited; welcome or invited actions or words are not unlawful." "The courts have generally concluded that a victim need not say or do a particular thing to indicate unwelcomeness. Instead, a court will review all of the circumstances to determine whether it was reasonably clear to the harasser that the conduct was unwelcome. "
- thedz 11y ago
  General rule of thumb is that a manager should never flirt or make advances to his direct reports, because the power imbalance and potential for confusion there is just too great. Even if it was mutual, HR would probably have moved either her or him to a different team if their relationship had progressed.
thedz 11y ago
1. There's a lot of typical victim blaming, downplaying, and "why didn't she just ask him to stop" comments on this submission, and it saddens me. Many of the reactions here are a large part why so many women feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in tech. 2. This is partially why HR exists. HR isn't just there to handle payroll. More people should do this, rather than let things fester or ignore things that should be reported.
- y04nn 11y ago
  Women should stand up and stop calling themselves victims.
isnullorempty 11y ago
A lot of time sexual harassment == someone i'm not attracted to flirting with me. If it was a 6 foot handsome guy then it would be highlight of the week.
bitL 11y ago
As somebody that has endured the same the other way round - being hit on by many (even married) female colleagues, HR girls, having a female manager attempting to invite me to her room in the hotel, girls repeatedly stalking me at my apartment, e.g. after I performed on a piano at a party, even just meeting random girls that would dump their boyfriends on the spot, completely shaking with excitement (me and her BF just look at each other with disbelief: "Is this really happening?"), dozens of girls telling me I am their "Mr.Perfect" etc. I can relate to her plight. However, she at least has some recourse; if I wrote a blog about my experiences I'd become a laughing stock of the Internet. Sometimes I think redpillers/AFBB got something right, which is shaking me to the core... There are some very dark areas of both male and female sexuality...
- qb45 11y ago
  > if I wrote a blog about my experiences I'd become a laughing stock of the Internet So write a blog post on what lead you to such abundance :)
  - bitL 11y ago
    Win everything you can as a kid whether it is sports or scientific competitions, then decide it's not worth it (winner is the lonely one), grow in an environment where girls are looking like supermodels so you aren't intimidated by their looks and can talk to them normally and just don't care that much about them, learn as many arts as you can, like playing an instrument, how to use chiaroscuro, how to make pro photography, direct movies, make computer games and cool graphics, run your own businesses, be amongst top students of your universities, be very tall, have a nice personality with very firm boundaries, go deep into conversations with girls then eject to avoid boredom on both sides, be surprising, don't be needy, nerdy, geeky, abrasive or inept, have a sister that tries to break your frame since you were child but was never successful, have a vision you follow and push for a better world, learn at least 6 foreign languages, travel around the world, be fit, be able to tell off declining people with perceived power over you when they behave like retards in front of everyone etc. Have fun! :-P
    - 11y ago
fred_is_fred 11y ago
HR ONLY EXISTS TO PROTECT THE COMPANY. They are not there for you or to support you or to even support the truth. They will almost always without fail support the manager over the IC. I feel like we shouldn't let people graduate college until they know this. It sucks, but it's the truth.
voidr 11y ago
> In hindsight and with more experience, I now can say, “Yes, I shouldn’t have tolerated even a little bit of misogyny or mistreatment. I should’ve immediately given him feedback that it made me feel extremely uncomfortable.” But regardless of my own reactions, the fact remains that sexual harassment should never have happened in the first place. Women don't(in some cases: don't want) to realise that they can send out misleading signals, which itself would not be an issue if they would clarify their limits when a man does something inappropriate. Men might do something physical without any bad intentions and women might interpret them otherwise. Here is how I see it: If someone violates your intimate space, send a subtle signal that it's not okay: move away, turn away or do a grumpy cat impression. If the person does not understand the subtle signal, use words. If words fail, contact the authorities. I'd wish we could move away from the one dimensional "males in tech are sexist" angle onto something more scientific. However, judging by the tile of the post, we are galaxies away from that.
- bobwaycott 11y ago
  > Women don't(in some cases: don't want) to realise that they can send out misleading signals, which itself would not be an issue if they would clarify their limits when a man does something inappropriate. Sigh. This is nonsense. Men don't, or don't want to, realize they frequently misinterpret so-called "signals", or don't pay attention to them at all. There's a sad truth that women actually send signals men completely miss, while men actually pick up signals that were never sent. A woman should never have to expend extra effort to clarify their limits when a man does something inappropriate. An easy way to guarantee this is to constantly be mindful of your actions and never do anything inappropriate. General rule of thumb as a man: treat physical interactions with women in the workplace the same way you do other men in the workplace--inherently non-sexual. Second rule of thumb: all that sexual conversation you might be used to having with other men--don't do it with women. It's for this reason that expecting the victim of unwanted behaviors to send subtle signals first is pretty silly. If we're going to suggest anything, let's not go with something subtle and ambiguous that is likely to be misunderstood and misinterpreted by the person who is already behaving inappropriately. Instead, let's opt for expecting something like this: That's fucking offensive. Don't ever fucking do that again. This is your only warning. Pretty clear. Straight to the point. Pony up an apology, or admit that you're being a lecherous fuck. Don't feel comfortable being direct? Go directly to HR. Don't have HR? Give that "fuck off" directive a go. Worst case outcome? You realize this isn't the place for you and move on. --- > Men might do something physical without any bad intentions and women might interpret them otherwise. Bullshit. Here are examples of "something physical without any bad intentions" that are pretty impossible for women to misinterpret: - high fives - fist bumps - shaking hands - a pat/slap on the upper back or shoulders to say good job - a light punch/slap to the arm in an obviously playful way (probably only best with well-known company that already trusts you) Oh, and if you actually are paying attention and notice a woman recoil in any way from these types of interactions: make a mental note to not do that again. There's probably something in her past experiences that makes her uncomfortable with this, and it really doesn't put you out at all to remain mindful of that as you interact with her in the workplace. Here are examples of "something physical" that cannot hide behind "no bad intentions": - touching a woman anywhere, in any way, not covered above - kissing a woman anywhere, in any way - asking a woman to sit on your lap - positioning yourself in such a way next to a woman that you intentionally make physical contact of an intimate sort Why? Because women can fucking tell when you're making an advance. And men cannot hide behind a silly schoolboy's defense of "mixed signals". After almost 35 years of life as a heterosexual man who doesn't have much trouble with women, here are a few general rules and suggestions on how to handle interactions with women to ensure you don't ever "misread" signals. I'll give them in a half-assed order of importance. General rules: 1. Treat every woman with absolute respect as a person, not as a sex object, every time. 2. Don't interpret or estimate your probability-of-fucking. 3. Trust that women don't really ever play "hard to get". Ever. 4. Trust that women will make it very clear when they're inviting you to increase physical intimacy. 5. Understand that just because a woman smiles or is nice/polite/kind/open, doesn't mean she is saying, "I want to fuck you." 6. If in doubt, ask don't act. General suggestions: 1. Allow a woman to set the tone of physical intimacy. Reply in like kind. It's really, really, really easy to tell if a woman is physically/sexually/romantically interested in you as an adult. She will typically do more than simply "send signals". If a woman trusts you enough to touch you on the arm, it's probably okay to touch her arm. That doesn't mean it's okay to rub her arm. If she touches you on the leg, it's probably okay to touch her on the leg. But feel free to ask, cos there's no harm in that. She might be doing it subconsciously, and you'll be able to alert her to this without groping her leg and making her feel assaulted. If she's rubbing your arms and legs, that's a pretty unmistakable indication that she's feeling safe, trusting, and probably okay with you returning the same level of physical touch. But that doesn't mean you should grab her breasts and jam your tongue into her mouth. At the club on the dance floor? Don't walk up and start grinding some woman with your junk. If the lady wants to grind, she'll make the move. And then she might want to go do the same on some other guy. C'est la vie. Why? Because she's often just out to have a good time, not find someone to go home with. If she is looking for someone to go home with, follow the directives above and you'll be certain to never find yourself the perpetrator of a sexual assault or harassing behavior. 2. Just because you like feeling like a piece of meat, doesn't mean she does. I have experienced, on more than a few occasions, a relatively unknown female coworker telling me I have a nice ass, or some other such physical attribute. Cool. Flattering. My response: laugh it off. I don't turn around and say, "Well, your ass is damn fine, too." Accept the compliment. For whatever reason, some women think it's okay to do that. And they can be the same women who would be offended if you did it to them. Big deal. That's how it is. They know when they're attractive, because every fucking dude in the world tells them so. Don't ever be that guy--unless you're actually in a relationship with her; then, by all means, tell her all the time. Just steer clear of making comments to a woman in the workplace about her appearance. 100% guaranteed success rate there. 3. Physical intimacy doesn't belong in the workplace. This one's pretty damn easy. Even when I've been in a serious relationship with a coworker, we never brought that into the workplace. There's no need to kiss in the office. Or have my girlfriend sit on my lap. Or touch her in an intimate spot. It's the fucking workplace. Treat it as such. All the more fun when you get home later. It can wait. --- I seriously cannot believe we're still having this conversation in 2016.

180 points by AndrewDucker 11y ago

zoidb 11y ago

original - https://medium.com/@juliachou/it-s-not-your-fault-3e5ad1ccb95c#.chzsfx407 https://medium.com/@juliachou/it-s-not-your-fault-3e5ad1ccb9...

dang 11y ago
Previously discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10909612 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10909612.

pervycreeper 11y ago

>When I was eventually promoted on the team, I resented having doubts about its merits — was I promoted because of my abilities, or was I promoted because he was trying to apologise for his boorish behaviour? It must be awful to have a problem like that.

qb45 11y ago

> In the span of a week, I went from feeling excited and motivated about my job to feeling lethargic, anxious, and unenthused. (...) I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap, told about my manager’s sex life and virility (...) There exists a breed of narcissists who are so incapable of tolerating rejection that they will consistently ignore every sign of it. In fact, the less you are satisfied with their actions, the more they will repeat them, desperately needing to see that your displeasure was just a temporary fluke and in the end they really are those cool dudes who are never wrong and everybody just admires them. As a man I've never been asked to sit on one's lap (knock on wood), but some did give me a fair amount of trouble. It doesn't help that their delusional serf-confidence can be confused with competence by some less experienced folks and get them promoted to management roles. In fact, I'd expect their density to increase as you go up the corporate food chain.

marincounty 11y ago
I'm a hetrosexual male who's done everything from construction to coding. At every job I've had--workers, mainly guys, but so, so many women too, discuss their sexual life. (In all honestly, women have told me too more personal things (sexual in nature) at work, over men. The big difference is these women had no power over my career. And the difference is they weren't "hitting" on me. When I was a younger man--yes some where, but I handled the situation. (I guarantee now they are just yacking about sex, and their personal stuff.)The last thing I wanted to hear on a Monday was a story about Shirly's elder son walking in on her and her new boy friend "rattling the bed". I still can't get that image out of my head, and it's been 20 years. Actually, I have found both sexes guilty of talking about their sex life at work. It could be intimate details of the date you had on Friday night, or how your mate isn't attentive to your needs any more. I've never liked hearing personal stuff about my coworkers. Of course, I never said anything, because it was innocent conversation at the time, but if I was an attractive female, or a young attractive male, I might have thought differently. Maybe we shouldn't talk about this stuff at work. Personally, I just don't like hearing anything that personal ever. That's what therapists get paid to suffer through? I not conflating my experiences with her's; just stating we shouldn't talk about anything remotely sexual--hell--shut up about baby on the way. We see the cute baby bump, or suffer through how hard it was to fertilize the egg. (Guys like me look at it as a tragedy, not something great.) People talk way too much at work. In my experience, most are lonely and don't have close friends, and use workers as free friends, and free therapy. We don't want to hear it. The jokes are worn out. It's just done. Find friends outside of work to dazzle with your stories. I know finding friends is very hard. It's even harder, if all you have concentrated on is work since that first job out of college. And yes, some are sexual predators. I've seen them in most work places. Ive seen gay managers give special jobs to their boy Friday. I've seen pretty girls promoted--just becase they are pretty. I used to see blatatent sexual harassment, but not in the last fifteen years, but it looks like it hasn't gone away, at least at Google.
- skj 11y ago
  Nice typo about Shirley's elder son wanking in on her... I hope?

AznHisoka 11y ago

Is this really a problem with Silicon Valley? I think it's an universal problem you'll find in all industries.

moomin 11y ago
Women who leave seem to think it's worse in tech. Pretty solid data point.
- Ma8ee 11y ago
  It's probably worse in all sectors where women are a small minority.
  - aikah 11y ago
    > It's probably worse in all sectors where women are a small minority. It would be interesting to see if the data supports that statement. Is there less sexual harassment in education or medical professions where women are the majority ? According to my experience, I don't think so.
- lagadu 11y ago
  That's a pretty terrible data point because of how biased it is. It's like saying that everyone who abandoned a certain film halfway says the film is bad and concluding that most people in general hate the film: your data points are coming from a group who almost exclusively hated the film in the first place: they're not representative of the entire population.
  - moomin 11y ago
    Well, Ashe Dryden's pretty much debunked this whole line of reasoning better than I ever can. So I'll point you at that https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/dissent-unheard-of https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/dissent-unheard-of If you're still unconvinced, you might want to start examining your own sample bias.

deleted 11y ago

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deleted 11y ago

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rplnt 11y ago

> a company well-known for its “Do no evil” culture This was their motto a decade back and what they are doing does not reflect it even remotely. I'm pretty sure they are not known for "do no evil" culture, just that the slogan is tied to them somehow.

skj 11y ago
That's not the slogan. It's "don't be evil." "Don't do evil" is impossible for a corporation with 50k employees. "Don't be evil" is a worthy ideal to strive for.

shallowpedantic 11y ago

I probably would've felt more sympathy for her had it not been for the fact that upon scrolling down, she still has google listed as one of her former employers! now if being at google was such a traumatic experience, why reference them in your sexual harassment letter? If it happened to me, I wouldn't list the former employer I worked for.

skj 11y ago
This is your complaint? How silly.
- nahiluhmot 11y ago
  In all fairness, parent's username is shallowpedantic.
  - shallowpedantic 11y ago
    well I can't disappoint the fans! oh please, she's fine. she used it as an excuse to shamelessly plug her company, if anything it served as jet-fuel for her. I stand by my point - the company did not directly harass her but a member of the company did. If she was as hurt as she claimed to be she wouldn't ever reference google as a place where she used to work. And none of you have offered any replies of any substance, merely snide, malicious comments in an attempt to lower me to your level.
facepalm 11y ago
It wasn't Google that harassed her, but one of of Google's employees.
- shallowpedantic 11y ago
  Yes, because google as a entity would've been able to kiss her on the cheek. a company isn't capable of executing the type of harassment that she is complaining about. But whatever, down-voted to hell by a community as a toxic as reddit simply because of a difference in opinion.

jneal 11y ago

I'm not going to speak directly regarding the way this individual handled this situation, but in general, if you experience any form of sexual harassment I highly recommend you speak with HR immediately following the incident. Don't allow it to escalate, things can only get worse. Even if it's your first day on the job, you should never feel speaking to HR regarding an incident is a bad idea.

Aeolos 11y ago
Can you really trust HR to do the right thing?
- mtrimpe 11y ago
  Indeed; never trust HR to do the right thing. HR will choose the approach they believe minimizes risk to the company. If they believe kicking you out instead of your harasser is less risky they won't hesitate twice to do so. I can confirm that from personal experience. If you can afford it get legal advice first ... and then go to HR.
  - Cthulhu_ 11y ago
    > If you can afford it get legal advice first And if you can't, join a union (or form one if they don't exist), they can help pay for legal advice and/or have their own lawyers.
  - ruraljuror 11y ago
    I would disagree with this advice. Unless you have a good reason not to trust your particular hr department for this situation, you should put in a good faith effort. Perhaps you could argue that most hr departments are incompetent, but I cannot imagine a scenario where retaliating against an employee for reporting sexual harassment would minimize a company's risk. Also I believe most employment discrimination employees will work on a contingency basis, so you should consider reaching out to them regardless of your financial situation. I understand the constant refrain from HN of never trust hr, but I think reporting to hr could form a better foundation for a lawsuit. Feel free to contact an attorney first. That is what I would do.

ordbajsare 11y ago

>In that week, I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap... >Protect yourself and others. Report it to HR. The correct response is to punch him in the face, defend your personal space with extreme prejudice.

gilgoomesh 11y ago
I assume you're kidding but if you're not: you run the risk of being fired for physical assault, whether or not you're in the right. In any case, as reported in the article, people in that situation are more likely to be paralysed by shock and doubt. A blunt, self-assured response in the moment is unlikely.
- sre_ops 11y ago
  > I assume you're kidding but if you're not: you run the risk of being fired for physical assault, whether or not you're in the right. And that's when you sue the living hell out of the company and walk away with a few million dollars.
dhimes 11y ago
I don't agree, but upvoting because I think it is worth discussing the idea that women get attacked like this (and that's what sexual harassment is) because the men think they can bully the women. Perhaps not a punch in the face, but a clear shove away may go a long way towards making the point. I am also suspicious of approaching HR first. Perhaps a lawyer has written about how to handle this online, especially what and how to document, how to handle any witnesses, etc., but if not I would hope my wife would talk to a lawyer first. I guarantee that HR knows how to handle the incident, but they are working on behalf of the company. That doesn't mean they are working on behalf of the manager, though, so they can be at least half-trusted (IMHO). But I would still prefer that my wife have her own source of knowledge on this situation.
- edraferi 11y ago
  Agree. There's a clear escalation path for this kind of thing. First time something weird happens, ignore it as a possible misunderstanding / off day. Second time, make a clear verbal rejection. Third time forward, you're dealing with a pattern of clearly unwanted behavior so everything gets documented in writing and reported to HR. If HR doesn't address the situation in a week or so, bring in the lawyers.

zupreme 11y ago

I'm not so sure about this one. I think sexual harassment and direct flirtation can become confused depending on the perspective of the recipient. Men have been making advances toward women throughout history and, perhaps to a lesser extent, women do the same toward men. Far more workplace flings happen than any company (and even many employees) will admit and it often starts with one party or the other making their desires known to the other party. I've also been part of and present for many very graphic conversations in the workplace involving both sexes and none of these, to my knowledge, were never seen as harassment or reported as such. In reading the linked article the one thing I don't see is where she told the manager "No. I'm not interested. Leave me alone." Perhaps if she had simply been as direct with him as he was being with her, the entire HR fiasco could have been avoided. It's telling that the female colleague felt that she was overreacting. At no point in the article does she mention the manager touching her inappropriately, or saying anything to imply that her job or compensation depended on her accepting his advances. This honestly sounds like he was a guy who got attracted to a colleague, made steadily increasing verbal advances (which were not rebuffed), and then got blindsided by HR. I'm sure this won't be a popular view here but I think it's valid. Edit: Replaced "HR Worker" with "Colleague". As some responders pointed out it was not the HR person who told her she was overreacting (thanks for the corrections).

thedz 11y ago
> It's telling that the female HR person felt that she was overreacting. At no point in the article does she mention the manager touching her inappropriately, or saying anything to imply that her job or compensation depended on her accepting his advances. It was a female colleague, not HR. According to the article, HR was fully behind her, as they should be. > This honestly sounds like he was a guy who got attracted to a colleague, made steadily increasing verbal advances (which were not rebuffed), and then got blindsided by HR. Not just a colleague, a report. This is what's important. HR would have frowned on a manager making advances on his reports, if nothing else. Especially advances on a new report during her first week.
- spoiler 11y ago
  My friend was in the same position about a year ago, and she told her boss (directly, and in private conversation) that she's not interested, after he didn't interpret a few other subtle hints. She still works there. Furthermore, she the boss and some other colleagues were cracking jokes about it during a team building event that I was invited to. Edit: I realise this is anecdotal, but it feels to me like the author of the blog post immediately assumed she's a victim and panicked. Maybe the manager should've been more observant, but pointing fingers is useless without knowing what really happened. We only have her account of the story, which is probably distorted by the discomfort she experienced. This is not to say her discomfort shouldn't be taken into account, and yes I agree that HR should've sided with her, but I don't believe he should've been seriously sanctioned either.

leaveyou 11y ago

What an uplifting story. Sexual harassment is a serious problem affecting women all over the world. I'm glad that more and more people speak up.

exo762 11y ago
If you think that women are somehow immune to this behaviour you are very naive. Stereotype of older women superior hitting on young men has not appeared from thin air.
- leaveyou 11y ago
  From my wife's experience, older women superiors are way too busy making the professional life of younger women a living hell and they don't have much time and energy left to harass young men.

ck2 11y ago

In that week, I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap, told about my manager’s sex life and virility, and told that “all men go through an Asian fetish at some time” holy frack - that's insane - and no way the first time they've said these things in front of other people before with no-one challenging the behavior as unacceptable easy guide for men: if you wouldn't say it to a friend's daughter, or someone saying it to your daughter, don't say it to any woman you aren't in a personal relationship

eklavya 11y ago

Why does nobody seem to be bothered with the apologize and continue as usual outcome? Shouldn't there have been serious implications for the sexual offender?

mollmerx 11y ago
This. I find it surprising that the offender wasn't terminated and incomprehensible that the victim was required to continue reporting to him.
room271 11y ago
Yes, for the things she describes her manager should have been fired, not kept on after some kind of apology.
Sir_Cmpwn 11y ago
I have to write this comment pretty carefully to avoid vindicating the offender or blaming the victim. It seems to me like the victim wasn't making it clear that she was uncomfortable (this is not her fault), and perhaps the offender was picking up on signals that weren't there. The situation needed to be fixed, but the behaviour mentioned in the article could have been more flirtatious than forced. A zero tolerance policy is just a way of removing the humanity from the situation. Maybe the events weren't so severe to demand that he lose his job, has charges pressed, etc. I don't think we should be calling for his head. I am surprised that she continued to work under his management, though.
- panic 11y ago
  It doesn't matter if it was "more flirtatious than forced". A manager should not flirt with their reports. Managers are supposed to be responsible for the growth of their employees; making an employee so uncomfortable with you that they run away from you on sight is a spectacular failure to do your job.
  - edraferi 11y ago
    Correct. It's harder to enforce judgements on this kind of thing though, because ambiguity exists about the intention. It's much easier to punish clear "do me a favor for the promotion/bonus" situations. I agree a blanket "no romance with direct reports" rule is best. I'm just astonished she didn't get an immediate transfer to another group. I would be livid if this was happening and HR didn't remove the power dynamic immediately.

bontoJR 11y ago

This problem happens in every industry, tourism and hospitality is full of these cases as far as I heard even by people I personally know. The Silicon Valley situation is more visible for the simple reason that diversity is still a problem, so having so few girls makes this a huge problem and a barrier hard to overcome for women. I feel truly sorry for all the female colleagues having troubles with bosses and colleagues harassing or also bullying them (have you ever heard somebody saying: "she's a girl, let's give her this task b/c is very trivial").

wavefunction 11y ago
>girls You should start by referring to female workers in SV as women.

Shic 11y ago

ew em

sonabinu 11y ago

How come the manager got away with just an apology?

auggierose 11y ago

She admits in that piece that she shouldn't have laughed at jokes that made her uncomfortable. So I suggest people/women keep themselves out of situations like this by being honest and upfront with their colleagues in the first place. If that doesn't work, go to HR. Simple as that.

isnullorempty 11y ago

What happened to the woman in the article was unacceptable _if_ she clearly signaled she wasn't interested. On the other hand some women now think "Why won't that cute guy come hit on me?, is he shy or gay?" No he is worried you will report him for harassment. Forget ever trying to date someone from work it's a minefield (as is dating in general!).

throwaway999888 11y ago
It's unacceptable because of the manager-subordinate relation. And you can't put the burden on women to actively signal that they are not sexually interested in a professional setting. That's at best a large distraction for them, and at worst very draining and emotionally damaging.
- isnullorempty 11y ago
  I meant if someone show interest not all the time, men can be dumb and are unable to detect subtle hints.
  - thedz 11y ago
    Are you actually using "I'm stupid and oblivious" as an excuse?
shinigami 11y ago
Yes, life must be so hard without being able to date people from work.
- isnullorempty 11y ago
  Given you spent a large chunk of your waking life at work it's a breeding ground for attractions to be formed same as school, uni etc.

throwaway19245 11y ago

I'd like to preface this comment by saying I'm not confident in my opinion, and I'm very open to discussion and to changing my stance. My understanding is that the manager's actions would likely be considered low level harassment, tipping towards misconduct considering the short duration (1 week) and minimal resolution attempts outside of HR. Definitions are hard for this subject, but my understanding is the phrase escalates with severity from misconduct->harassment->assault. I agree that the manager was in the wrong, but I worry about a culture that cannot readily distinguish the severity of conduct, and in-turn come up with an appropriate response. In this scenario, I feel going to HR was appropriate, but I also feel this writing takes an overly hostile tone, instead of one focused on improvement. I'd find this tone appropriate if there were more pushback from HR, or if harassment continued and HR wouldn't help resolve. But as far as I can tell, OP is happy with HRs response. Perhaps instead we can explore what HR can and should do to prevent self-confidence issues at the conclusion of these investigations? To me, that would be more beneficial than asking others to pursue a path which - all things being similar - results in self-doubt.

deleted 11y ago
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mgbmtl 11y ago
I understand your point of view, but I feel like we often underestimate the level of harm that some types of misconduct can cause. A workplace should never tolerate any type of harassment (and few workplaces do). It's not just the act itself, it's also the act in the current historical context (institutional inequality) and work context (workplace power inequality). Unfortunately the effects on OP are probably much bigger than we expect because of the way we are socialized, our culture, etc. Some might say that it's not the guy's fault that our society is so imbalanced, but I think we should be more conscious about this in general. To prevent the self-confidence issue, we could probably fix our education and general culture, but in the short term we could just not harass women at work. That's a pretty easy short term solution :)

enraged_camel 11y ago

I have a feeling that if your mother read this comment she would tell you to cut this shit out.

mbrutsch 11y ago
Perhaps. She did not live long enough to experience the "culture of victimhood" herself, so I can't say what she would have done. I do know she wasn't fond of the idea in the 70s and 80s, and regularly eschewed the notion that she was any different from any of the men with whom she worked. But the fact that she was a "quiet" feminist, that did things, rather than talking about doing things, leads me to believe you may be correct. She was not a whinger.
- enraged_camel 11y ago
  >>"culture of victimhood" You seem to have trouble between people who play the victim for attention (which is what that phrase refers to) and those who are actually victims. Just because some victims are capable of defending themselves doesn't change anything. Your mother was a victim too.
  - mbrutsch 11y ago
    > Your mother was a victim too. Only in your mind, not in hers.
    - enraged_camel 11y ago
      And also according to the dictionary, which defines the word "victim" as: "One who is harmed by or made to suffer under a circumstance or condition: e.g. victims of war; victims of an epidemic; victims of poverty." Unless you believe she enjoyed the attentions of men, that is. In which case you would be correct.
      - mbrutsch 11y ago
        1. I don't believe she "suffered", any more than the folks in this thread have "suffered". Words did not become such harmful weapons until recently. 2. I find it somewhere between amusing and horrifying that you compare war, epidemic and poverty to someone grabbing your ass at work. They are different by at least one order of magnitude.

bunkydoo 11y ago

This is why corporations won't exist in their current form by the end of the century. I firmly believe that working solo prevents every problem the workplace could possibly present. As a LGBT male I feel that even though all these companies try to prance around with rainbow flags and make racial and gender based hiring quotas - it just furthers segregation. By abandoning the fuckers in HR and fighting for your own place in this world, you get places. If anyone were to question my sexual preferences or harass me in a coffee shop, I'd clock that bastard across the face, drag him to the pavement and stomp his sorry ass. Try that at work in your sissy ass silicon valley office.

pc86 11y ago
I don't think the idea that corporations aren't going to exist by the end of the century has any basis in reality. What evidence do you have to suggest that? And if you could explain it without needlessly hostile phrases like "fuckers in HR" or "sissy ass," that's probably for the best.
jacquesm 11y ago
Well, that only works because you're physically strong. Try the same strategy as a slightly built woman and see how it works out.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

sheraz 11y ago

Office environments today are like minefields. A man never knows when his next step, word, or simple action will be misconstrued as harassment. Hold a door? Thats harassment. Wink ;-) in an email or IM? Thats harassment. Tell an off-color joke? Thats harassment. Complement female coworkers outfit? Thats harassment. Stand too close in an elevator or inline at the canteen? Thats harassment. Getting caught looking looking at a female coworkers boobs? Thats harassment. The problem is that at the end of the day it is all up to how that female employee "feels." If she is especially sensitive, then everyone around her has to walk on eggshells. Why can't anyone have a sense of humor about any of this? I think I'm going to watch 9 to 5 with Dolly Parton tonight, just to remember a time when people had a sense of humor about dealing with toxic office culture.

smackfu 11y ago
If you think her actual claims are not harassment, then argue that.
- sheraz 11y ago
  I think the first problem is that harassment is a loaded term. It implies more than what actually happened. Harassment, to me, is what bill collectors and bullys do. They call you repeatedly, they post about you on social media. They follow you home. Why not call it this -- her boss is an asshole, and she didn't call him out on it.
hluska 11y ago
Come on, that is bullshit. Simply, don't go out of your way to be an asshole. Genuine compliments are fine. Leering is wrong. Sexually suggestive comments or winks in emails are wrong. Don't treat anyone as a lesser form of life. This is so fucking simple and it makes for a better work environment for all.
- isnullorempty 11y ago
  So what are you supposed to do if you are attracted to someone at work, never make a move? Women need to be more forgiving and take it as a compliment, unless someone continues after a clear rejection (which is the definition of harassment).

yodsanklai 11y ago

Is the term "sexual harassement" appropriate here? It'd be interesting to hear the manager point of view on this issue. We have only one side of the story here. Maybe the manager genuinely thought this was a case of mutual flirting there. Or flirting in the workplace = sexual harassment? EDIT: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sexual+harassment http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sexual+harassm... "A key part of the definition is the use of the word unwelcome. Unwelcome or uninvited conduct or communication of a sexual nature is prohibited; welcome or invited actions or words are not unlawful." "The courts have generally concluded that a victim need not say or do a particular thing to indicate unwelcomeness. Instead, a court will review all of the circumstances to determine whether it was reasonably clear to the harasser that the conduct was unwelcome. "

thedz 11y ago
General rule of thumb is that a manager should never flirt or make advances to his direct reports, because the power imbalance and potential for confusion there is just too great. Even if it was mutual, HR would probably have moved either her or him to a different team if their relationship had progressed.

thedz 11y ago

1. There's a lot of typical victim blaming, downplaying, and "why didn't she just ask him to stop" comments on this submission, and it saddens me. Many of the reactions here are a large part why so many women feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in tech. 2. This is partially why HR exists. HR isn't just there to handle payroll. More people should do this, rather than let things fester or ignore things that should be reported.

y04nn 11y ago
Women should stand up and stop calling themselves victims.

isnullorempty 11y ago

A lot of time sexual harassment == someone i'm not attracted to flirting with me. If it was a 6 foot handsome guy then it would be highlight of the week.

bitL 11y ago

As somebody that has endured the same the other way round - being hit on by many (even married) female colleagues, HR girls, having a female manager attempting to invite me to her room in the hotel, girls repeatedly stalking me at my apartment, e.g. after I performed on a piano at a party, even just meeting random girls that would dump their boyfriends on the spot, completely shaking with excitement (me and her BF just look at each other with disbelief: "Is this really happening?"), dozens of girls telling me I am their "Mr.Perfect" etc. I can relate to her plight. However, she at least has some recourse; if I wrote a blog about my experiences I'd become a laughing stock of the Internet. Sometimes I think redpillers/AFBB got something right, which is shaking me to the core... There are some very dark areas of both male and female sexuality...

qb45 11y ago
> if I wrote a blog about my experiences I'd become a laughing stock of the Internet So write a blog post on what lead you to such abundance :)
- bitL 11y ago
  Win everything you can as a kid whether it is sports or scientific competitions, then decide it's not worth it (winner is the lonely one), grow in an environment where girls are looking like supermodels so you aren't intimidated by their looks and can talk to them normally and just don't care that much about them, learn as many arts as you can, like playing an instrument, how to use chiaroscuro, how to make pro photography, direct movies, make computer games and cool graphics, run your own businesses, be amongst top students of your universities, be very tall, have a nice personality with very firm boundaries, go deep into conversations with girls then eject to avoid boredom on both sides, be surprising, don't be needy, nerdy, geeky, abrasive or inept, have a sister that tries to break your frame since you were child but was never successful, have a vision you follow and push for a better world, learn at least 6 foreign languages, travel around the world, be fit, be able to tell off declining people with perceived power over you when they behave like retards in front of everyone etc. Have fun! :-P
  - 11y ago

fred_is_fred 11y ago

HR ONLY EXISTS TO PROTECT THE COMPANY. They are not there for you or to support you or to even support the truth. They will almost always without fail support the manager over the IC. I feel like we shouldn't let people graduate college until they know this. It sucks, but it's the truth.

voidr 11y ago

> In hindsight and with more experience, I now can say, “Yes, I shouldn’t have tolerated even a little bit of misogyny or mistreatment. I should’ve immediately given him feedback that it made me feel extremely uncomfortable.” But regardless of my own reactions, the fact remains that sexual harassment should never have happened in the first place. Women don't(in some cases: don't want) to realise that they can send out misleading signals, which itself would not be an issue if they would clarify their limits when a man does something inappropriate. Men might do something physical without any bad intentions and women might interpret them otherwise. Here is how I see it: If someone violates your intimate space, send a subtle signal that it's not okay: move away, turn away or do a grumpy cat impression. If the person does not understand the subtle signal, use words. If words fail, contact the authorities. I'd wish we could move away from the one dimensional "males in tech are sexist" angle onto something more scientific. However, judging by the tile of the post, we are galaxies away from that.

bobwaycott 11y ago
> Women don't(in some cases: don't want) to realise that they can send out misleading signals, which itself would not be an issue if they would clarify their limits when a man does something inappropriate. Sigh. This is nonsense. Men don't, or don't want to, realize they frequently misinterpret so-called "signals", or don't pay attention to them at all. There's a sad truth that women actually send signals men completely miss, while men actually pick up signals that were never sent. A woman should never have to expend extra effort to clarify their limits when a man does something inappropriate. An easy way to guarantee this is to constantly be mindful of your actions and never do anything inappropriate. General rule of thumb as a man: treat physical interactions with women in the workplace the same way you do other men in the workplace--inherently non-sexual. Second rule of thumb: all that sexual conversation you might be used to having with other men--don't do it with women. It's for this reason that expecting the victim of unwanted behaviors to send subtle signals first is pretty silly. If we're going to suggest anything, let's not go with something subtle and ambiguous that is likely to be misunderstood and misinterpreted by the person who is already behaving inappropriately. Instead, let's opt for expecting something like this: That's fucking offensive. Don't ever fucking do that again. This is your only warning. Pretty clear. Straight to the point. Pony up an apology, or admit that you're being a lecherous fuck. Don't feel comfortable being direct? Go directly to HR. Don't have HR? Give that "fuck off" directive a go. Worst case outcome? You realize this isn't the place for you and move on. --- > Men might do something physical without any bad intentions and women might interpret them otherwise. Bullshit. Here are examples of "something physical without any bad intentions" that are pretty impossible for women to misinterpret: - high fives - fist bumps - shaking hands - a pat/slap on the upper back or shoulders to say good job - a light punch/slap to the arm in an obviously playful way (probably only best with well-known company that already trusts you) Oh, and if you actually are paying attention and notice a woman recoil in any way from these types of interactions: make a mental note to not do that again. There's probably something in her past experiences that makes her uncomfortable with this, and it really doesn't put you out at all to remain mindful of that as you interact with her in the workplace. Here are examples of "something physical" that cannot hide behind "no bad intentions": - touching a woman anywhere, in any way, not covered above - kissing a woman anywhere, in any way - asking a woman to sit on your lap - positioning yourself in such a way next to a woman that you intentionally make physical contact of an intimate sort Why? Because women can fucking tell when you're making an advance. And men cannot hide behind a silly schoolboy's defense of "mixed signals". After almost 35 years of life as a heterosexual man who doesn't have much trouble with women, here are a few general rules and suggestions on how to handle interactions with women to ensure you don't ever "misread" signals. I'll give them in a half-assed order of importance. General rules: 1. Treat every woman with absolute respect as a person, not as a sex object, every time. 2. Don't interpret or estimate your probability-of-fucking. 3. Trust that women don't really ever play "hard to get". Ever. 4. Trust that women will make it very clear when they're inviting you to increase physical intimacy. 5. Understand that just because a woman smiles or is nice/polite/kind/open, doesn't mean she is saying, "I want to fuck you." 6. If in doubt, ask don't act. General suggestions: 1. Allow a woman to set the tone of physical intimacy. Reply in like kind. It's really, really, really easy to tell if a woman is physically/sexually/romantically interested in you as an adult. She will typically do more than simply "send signals". If a woman trusts you enough to touch you on the arm, it's probably okay to touch her arm. That doesn't mean it's okay to rub her arm. If she touches you on the leg, it's probably okay to touch her on the leg. But feel free to ask, cos there's no harm in that. She might be doing it subconsciously, and you'll be able to alert her to this without groping her leg and making her feel assaulted. If she's rubbing your arms and legs, that's a pretty unmistakable indication that she's feeling safe, trusting, and probably okay with you returning the same level of physical touch. But that doesn't mean you should grab her breasts and jam your tongue into her mouth. At the club on the dance floor? Don't walk up and start grinding some woman with your junk. If the lady wants to grind, she'll make the move. And then she might want to go do the same on some other guy. C'est la vie. Why? Because she's often just out to have a good time, not find someone to go home with. If she is looking for someone to go home with, follow the directives above and you'll be certain to never find yourself the perpetrator of a sexual assault or harassing behavior. 2. Just because you like feeling like a piece of meat, doesn't mean she does. I have experienced, on more than a few occasions, a relatively unknown female coworker telling me I have a nice ass, or some other such physical attribute. Cool. Flattering. My response: laugh it off. I don't turn around and say, "Well, your ass is damn fine, too." Accept the compliment. For whatever reason, some women think it's okay to do that. And they can be the same women who would be offended if you did it to them. Big deal. That's how it is. They know when they're attractive, because every fucking dude in the world tells them so. Don't ever be that guy--unless you're actually in a relationship with her; then, by all means, tell her all the time. Just steer clear of making comments to a woman in the workplace about her appearance. 100% guaranteed success rate there. 3. Physical intimacy doesn't belong in the workplace. This one's pretty damn easy. Even when I've been in a serious relationship with a coworker, we never brought that into the workplace. There's no need to kiss in the office. Or have my girlfriend sit on my lap. Or touch her in an intimate spot. It's the fucking workplace. Treat it as such. All the more fun when you get home later. It can wait. --- I seriously cannot believe we're still having this conversation in 2016.