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You're looking at things only in terms of purely economic transactions. The reality is that plenty of kids "working" in dangerous mines are not there because th

You're looking at things only in terms of purely economic transactions. The reality is that plenty of kids "working" in dangerous mines are not there because they made some rational choice to accept the risk in exchange for enough money to buy food[1] but because of threats of physical violence. To put it another way they are slaves. [1] why would we even expect children to have the capability to make those kinds of decisions rationally anyway?

calibraxis 11y ago
Yes, these children are integrated into a system where we benefit from their child slavery. And our economic theology keeps many of us from seeing the situation simply. ("They're better off as child slaves! They should probably thank us!")
- golergka 11y ago
  Are you suggesting that "seeing the situation simply" is a good thing?
  - calibraxis 11y ago
    Oh yes. Like people here echo Rich Hickey's or Dijkstra's words on Simple Made Easy. (Rather than trap themselves in hairball codebases, gradually unable to move forward.) Like people who reject the complexity of epicycles, that desperate theological attempt to preserve Earth at the center of the solar system. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Cassini_apparent.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Cassini_...) People will tie themselves in complex masochistic knots, to justify the absurd conclusions of their religious beliefs ("the invisible hand!"). As we see here in this discussion of child fucking slavery.
dennisgorelik 11y ago
Do you have any proof that children are slaves there (as opposing to working out of need)?
- anon1385 11y ago
  Here's a huge report about the activities of the people you are wanting to buy minerals from: https://www.globalwitness.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/report_en_final_0.pdf https://www.globalwitness.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/repor... "In the course of plundering these minerals, rebel groups and the Congolese army have used forced labour (often in extremely harsh and dangerous conditions), carried out systematic extortion and imposed illegal “taxes” on the civilian population. They have also used violence and intimidation against civilians who attempt to resist working for them or handing over the minerals they produce." Are you aware of the situation in the Democratic Republic of the Congo? There has been a civil war going on for 20 years. Control of mineral resources is an important source of funding for both sides in the conflict. Buying minerals from the Congo means dealing with violent armed militias who have been engaged in an appalling decades long war. You may as well be arguing about the morality of buying oil from ISIS on the basis that their drills are being operated by civilians who need the pay to survive. Current US foreign policy is to blow those people to bits, not buy oil from them to preserve their "jobs". You seem to be under the assumption that buying minerals from the Congo means the miners actually got paid. This is by no means certain at all. Some of it is just extorted from civilians at roadblocks as a "tax". Buying those minerals hasn't helped the miners at all, it has just further funded the militias/armies that are terrorising the civilian population (murder, rape, extortion, kidnapping).
  - seunosewa 11y ago
    Here's the real problem: " Congo’s 2002 Mining Code stipulates that ... mining can only take place in designated zones by registered miners. The failure of the government to assign sufficient areas has led to an increase in illegal mining at unauthorized sites, Amnesty said."
    - anon1385 11y ago
      The real problem is that there's a brutal civil war. The idea that the origin of the problem is government overregulation is laughable.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
golergka 11y ago
Being a slave is awful. But dying of hunger seems worse. So, what do you think will happen to child slaves when their owner suddenly finds that he no longer has any use for them and they no longer earn their food and lodging? What will they eat? Where will they live?
- anon1385 11y ago
  It's really not that simple at all. Please read this report: https://www.globalwitness.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/report_en_final_0.pdf https://www.globalwitness.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/repor... Buying minerals from the wrong people in the DRC doesn't mean you buy from people who benevolently employ children to save them from starvation. It means you buy from the people that set up roadblocks and extort minerals from civilians in exchange for nothing (other than not shooting them). It means buying minerals from organisations that are gang raping women and kidnapping children. Buying from those people further funds their operations, making the situation for civilians worse. The report makes recommendations, including a section "to companies and traders purchasing, handling or trading in minerals originating from eastern drc or neighbouring countries": >Exercise stringent due diligence regarding their mineral supplies: find out exactly where the minerals were produced (not only the broad geographical area, but the precise location and mine), by whom they were produced and under what conditions (including use of forced labour, child labour, health and safety and other labour conditions). >Refuse to buy minerals if the above information is not available or if there are indications that the minerals have passed through the hands of any of the warring parties, benefited them in other ways, or otherwise involved human rights abuses. >Be able to demonstrate, with credible written evidence, the exact origin of their mineral supplies, the routes they have taken and the identity of those involved in the chain of custody, including intermediaries or third parties who have handled them. >Do not accept oral or vague assurances from suppliers as to the origin of minerals and the identity of their own suppliers. Carry out spot checks to verify the sources and the accuracy of suppliers’ assurances. Require these measures in all circumstances, including in cases where minerals originate from areas which may be remote or difficult to access. >Commission and publish regular independent third-party audits of their supply chain. >Federations and associations of comptoirs and other trade bodies: adopt an explicit policy not to buy or handle minerals which benefit any of the warring parties in eastern DRC. Require their members to carry out the above due diligence steps systematically and to demonstrate precisely where all their supplies come from. Set up mechanisms for independently monitoring and checking whether their members are complying with these requirements.

calibraxis 11y ago

Yes, these children are integrated into a system where we benefit from their child slavery. And our economic theology keeps many of us from seeing the situation simply. ("They're better off as child slaves! They should probably thank us!")

golergka 11y ago
Are you suggesting that "seeing the situation simply" is a good thing?
- calibraxis 11y ago
  Oh yes. Like people here echo Rich Hickey's or Dijkstra's words on Simple Made Easy. (Rather than trap themselves in hairball codebases, gradually unable to move forward.) Like people who reject the complexity of epicycles, that desperate theological attempt to preserve Earth at the center of the solar system. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Cassini_apparent.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Cassini_...) People will tie themselves in complex masochistic knots, to justify the absurd conclusions of their religious beliefs ("the invisible hand!"). As we see here in this discussion of child fucking slavery.

dennisgorelik 11y ago

Do you have any proof that children are slaves there (as opposing to working out of need)?

anon1385 11y ago
Here's a huge report about the activities of the people you are wanting to buy minerals from: https://www.globalwitness.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/report_en_final_0.pdf https://www.globalwitness.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/repor... "In the course of plundering these minerals, rebel groups and the Congolese army have used forced labour (often in extremely harsh and dangerous conditions), carried out systematic extortion and imposed illegal “taxes” on the civilian population. They have also used violence and intimidation against civilians who attempt to resist working for them or handing over the minerals they produce." Are you aware of the situation in the Democratic Republic of the Congo? There has been a civil war going on for 20 years. Control of mineral resources is an important source of funding for both sides in the conflict. Buying minerals from the Congo means dealing with violent armed militias who have been engaged in an appalling decades long war. You may as well be arguing about the morality of buying oil from ISIS on the basis that their drills are being operated by civilians who need the pay to survive. Current US foreign policy is to blow those people to bits, not buy oil from them to preserve their "jobs". You seem to be under the assumption that buying minerals from the Congo means the miners actually got paid. This is by no means certain at all. Some of it is just extorted from civilians at roadblocks as a "tax". Buying those minerals hasn't helped the miners at all, it has just further funded the militias/armies that are terrorising the civilian population (murder, rape, extortion, kidnapping).
- seunosewa 11y ago
  Here's the real problem: " Congo’s 2002 Mining Code stipulates that ... mining can only take place in designated zones by registered miners. The failure of the government to assign sufficient areas has led to an increase in illegal mining at unauthorized sites, Amnesty said."
  - anon1385 11y ago
    The real problem is that there's a brutal civil war. The idea that the origin of the problem is government overregulation is laughable.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

golergka 11y ago

Being a slave is awful. But dying of hunger seems worse. So, what do you think will happen to child slaves when their owner suddenly finds that he no longer has any use for them and they no longer earn their food and lodging? What will they eat? Where will they live?

anon1385 11y ago
It's really not that simple at all. Please read this report: https://www.globalwitness.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/report_en_final_0.pdf https://www.globalwitness.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/repor... Buying minerals from the wrong people in the DRC doesn't mean you buy from people who benevolently employ children to save them from starvation. It means you buy from the people that set up roadblocks and extort minerals from civilians in exchange for nothing (other than not shooting them). It means buying minerals from organisations that are gang raping women and kidnapping children. Buying from those people further funds their operations, making the situation for civilians worse. The report makes recommendations, including a section "to companies and traders purchasing, handling or trading in minerals originating from eastern drc or neighbouring countries": >Exercise stringent due diligence regarding their mineral supplies: find out exactly where the minerals were produced (not only the broad geographical area, but the precise location and mine), by whom they were produced and under what conditions (including use of forced labour, child labour, health and safety and other labour conditions). >Refuse to buy minerals if the above information is not available or if there are indications that the minerals have passed through the hands of any of the warring parties, benefited them in other ways, or otherwise involved human rights abuses. >Be able to demonstrate, with credible written evidence, the exact origin of their mineral supplies, the routes they have taken and the identity of those involved in the chain of custody, including intermediaries or third parties who have handled them. >Do not accept oral or vague assurances from suppliers as to the origin of minerals and the identity of their own suppliers. Carry out spot checks to verify the sources and the accuracy of suppliers’ assurances. Require these measures in all circumstances, including in cases where minerals originate from areas which may be remote or difficult to access. >Commission and publish regular independent third-party audits of their supply chain. >Federations and associations of comptoirs and other trade bodies: adopt an explicit policy not to buy or handle minerals which benefit any of the warring parties in eastern DRC. Require their members to carry out the above due diligence steps systematically and to demonstrate precisely where all their supplies come from. Set up mechanisms for independently monitoring and checking whether their members are complying with these requirements.