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I will never miss an opportunity to trot out my favorite quote: “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited prole

I will never miss an opportunity to trot out my favorite quote: “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - Ronald Wright Americans are just going to have to get over themselves and figure out how to cooperate with their peers. We will take any opportunity to lash out at the ones we love. Dude's wife left him after he lost a job, he must not have been a very likable person. Most everywhere else in the world, living conditions have approximately tripled. People with nothing hold on to what they have. The US is the richest nation in the world, lots of people born here never really wanted for anything. So they fritter away things they really should hold on to, like a rich idiot jonesing for "self-actualization". Fuck the unions, we don't need 'em. Fuck that bitch wife of mine, I have Facebook and Tinder. I'll drink and smoke weed every day, that's what keeps me sane. These are people that need Sanders but will vote Trump. These people are not middle class. They don't have middle class values or sensibilities. They're lower-class Americans that rode the success of the 70s-90s up to a degree of stability but never built a real life out of it, frittering away the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity they had. You can't tailor policy to them with a prayer of allowing them to maintain their lifestyle. That lifestyle was predicated on a boom time and the party is now over. Unless you want to directly subsidize it, it's gone. You can't bring unions back because they won't join them, it's why the unions left in the first place. All you can do is alleviate some of the symptoms.

taurath 11y ago
I hope when all the software and entrepreneurial people on this forum are going through hard times instead of good as we are now we are not judged as harshly as you judge those going through harder times now.
- sangnoir 11y ago
  > I hope when all the software and entrepreneurial people on this forum are going through hard times instead of good as we are now we are not judged as harshly as you judge those going through harder times now While the tone is harsh - he has a point on voting against their own interests. I think a similar argument for developer is already being made on HN, concerning taking a pay cut in exchange of worthless common stock. I see no need to sugar-coat calling out poor decision making in any sphere.
  - vinceguidry 11y ago
    > I see no need to sugar-coat calling out poor decision making in any sphere. You can't help someone who consistently acts against their own best interests. At least, not the way you want to help them. All you can do is try to be understanding and work to keep the worst outcomes from happening. We want a policy solution? We could fund more soup kitchens. We help the poor with government programs because the poor are desperate enough to actually use the programs. What are you going to do for the middle class? They're entirely too proud for handouts, but that's really the only thing government can do. They won't even go to church, the quintessential middle-class charity.
    - tim333 11y ago
      >policy solution? You could always look to the rest of the developed world which doesn't seem to have quite the same issues
- eli_gottlieb 11y ago
  I think software types deserve harsher judgement: everyone in the software industry seems to be incredibly proud of their go-it-alone, I'm-a-rational-actor-in-a-global-market, I'm-too-skilled-to-become-unemployed delusions.
- vinceguidry 11y ago
  Every now and again someone falls on hard times and posts in the forum asking for assistance. Last time I remember this happening, the guy asked for short-term contracts rather than handouts. I'm not the richest guy in the world, but I offered one to him, I would have put the fee on a credit card. He never responded to my inquiry. I imagine he was flooded with better offers, I'll admit mine wasn't the greatest. The thread was filled with well-wishes and good advice. The community here are among the most understanding and generous people I've ever met, even amongst other devs. I'm sorry, but the people I'm referring to, would not know what to do with that kind of generosity if it was offered to them on a plate. I know these people well, I sympathize with them at the bar, I send them money when they're in jail, and again when they get out. They want self-respect but are too hard-headed to actually work well with others. You have to check your tendency to give because it's like pouring money down the drain. A homeless guy is happy with $20. The American "middle" class wouldn't be satisfied with thousands.
- kamaal 11y ago
  >>software and entrepreneurial people on this forum are going through hard times instead of good as we are now we are not judged as harshly as you judge those going through harder times now. If all the software guys going through a party now, make the same mistakes they will end up with the same problems. I'm not sure what this is considered harsh. You end up the consequences of your actions, is this concept really that hard to understand?
  - taurath 11y ago
    Sometimes the ground shakes from under everyone at once, and no amount of planning, advice or even clear-minded thought can prevent disaster. Its called life, and sometimes its hard. Some people deal with it better than others, but its hard for ANYONE to give up all that they know. Some people have obligations they can't give up without going against their hard-earned principles. We need to create dignified, repeatable and reasonable paths out of misery for those people. Right now, I don't see many that exist. Those who peddle and profit off of peoples resentment and fear are reigning over them, but I don't see many people offering alternatives.
x0x0 11y ago
I agree with much of your comment, but a big piece of it simply isn't true. Since the late 70s (dates vary slightly based on which instrument you use to measure), the returns to increased productivity have gone, almost entirely, to the rich. That has nothing to do with any natural law or boom, but rather a political decision that the country has made. Many of us who advocate for less inequality are advocating for changing the political decision behind the distribution of our wealth increase. For example, had median income, base year 1979, paced productivity, it would have gone from ~50k to ~90k (real). It actually went from ~49k to ... ~54k.
fucking_tragedy 11y ago
Years of lies, propaganda and rhetoric have been internalized. The greatest trick in politics has been the ability to convince people to vote against their own interests. > it's why the unions left in the first place If it was that simple, why are antilabor and unionization laws passed or pushed upon areas that allow freedom of assembly? Many physical laborers recognize the importance of unions and are members. If labor had a way to demand a portion of the productivity gains that went to the rich over the past ~40 years, not much would have changed in terms of lifestyle for the former middle class.
- humanrebar 11y ago
  > The greatest trick in politics has been the ability to convince people to vote against their own interests. This is more or less the argument Trump fans make when they argue for a border wall, tougher immigration laws, cracking down on Chinese trade, and other protectionist measures. Wishing other people were smarter (like us!) is a terrible thought process and very closed-minded. It's part of the reason partisans talk about each other instead of with each other.
TheGirondin 11y ago
Yes, people certainly love that quote because it means that can simply dismiss anyone who doesn't think the same way they do with having to do any critical thinking on their part to understand the actual reasons they disagree.
- wfo 11y ago
  Or, instead of assuming malice on the part of anyone who dares to disagree with you, you could recognize that people like it because it's clever and deeply true in a way that maybe you aren't able to see.
crdoconnor 11y ago
Socialism did take root in America. As did communism. They were rooted out and killed (often brutally) while the ruling classes pretended that they withered due to lack of necessity and/or interest. What did you think McCarthyism was all about? Or Ronald Reagan firing the air traffic controllers?
kamaal 11y ago
>>These people are not middle class. They don't have middle class values or sensibilities. The issue is if you've tasted riches for a while, its hard to wash away the feeling that you are some how special and entitled to money, regardless of the choices, decisions and the work you do in your life. Upgrades to a higher lifestyle is easy, downgrades are tougher, painful and emotionally taxing to a lot of people. Never upgrade if you can't sustain.

taurath 11y ago

I hope when all the software and entrepreneurial people on this forum are going through hard times instead of good as we are now we are not judged as harshly as you judge those going through harder times now.

sangnoir 11y ago
> I hope when all the software and entrepreneurial people on this forum are going through hard times instead of good as we are now we are not judged as harshly as you judge those going through harder times now While the tone is harsh - he has a point on voting against their own interests. I think a similar argument for developer is already being made on HN, concerning taking a pay cut in exchange of worthless common stock. I see no need to sugar-coat calling out poor decision making in any sphere.
- vinceguidry 11y ago
  > I see no need to sugar-coat calling out poor decision making in any sphere. You can't help someone who consistently acts against their own best interests. At least, not the way you want to help them. All you can do is try to be understanding and work to keep the worst outcomes from happening. We want a policy solution? We could fund more soup kitchens. We help the poor with government programs because the poor are desperate enough to actually use the programs. What are you going to do for the middle class? They're entirely too proud for handouts, but that's really the only thing government can do. They won't even go to church, the quintessential middle-class charity.
  - tim333 11y ago
    >policy solution? You could always look to the rest of the developed world which doesn't seem to have quite the same issues
eli_gottlieb 11y ago
I think software types deserve harsher judgement: everyone in the software industry seems to be incredibly proud of their go-it-alone, I'm-a-rational-actor-in-a-global-market, I'm-too-skilled-to-become-unemployed delusions.
vinceguidry 11y ago
Every now and again someone falls on hard times and posts in the forum asking for assistance. Last time I remember this happening, the guy asked for short-term contracts rather than handouts. I'm not the richest guy in the world, but I offered one to him, I would have put the fee on a credit card. He never responded to my inquiry. I imagine he was flooded with better offers, I'll admit mine wasn't the greatest. The thread was filled with well-wishes and good advice. The community here are among the most understanding and generous people I've ever met, even amongst other devs. I'm sorry, but the people I'm referring to, would not know what to do with that kind of generosity if it was offered to them on a plate. I know these people well, I sympathize with them at the bar, I send them money when they're in jail, and again when they get out. They want self-respect but are too hard-headed to actually work well with others. You have to check your tendency to give because it's like pouring money down the drain. A homeless guy is happy with $20. The American "middle" class wouldn't be satisfied with thousands.
kamaal 11y ago
>>software and entrepreneurial people on this forum are going through hard times instead of good as we are now we are not judged as harshly as you judge those going through harder times now. If all the software guys going through a party now, make the same mistakes they will end up with the same problems. I'm not sure what this is considered harsh. You end up the consequences of your actions, is this concept really that hard to understand?
- taurath 11y ago
  Sometimes the ground shakes from under everyone at once, and no amount of planning, advice or even clear-minded thought can prevent disaster. Its called life, and sometimes its hard. Some people deal with it better than others, but its hard for ANYONE to give up all that they know. Some people have obligations they can't give up without going against their hard-earned principles. We need to create dignified, repeatable and reasonable paths out of misery for those people. Right now, I don't see many that exist. Those who peddle and profit off of peoples resentment and fear are reigning over them, but I don't see many people offering alternatives.

x0x0 11y ago

I agree with much of your comment, but a big piece of it simply isn't true. Since the late 70s (dates vary slightly based on which instrument you use to measure), the returns to increased productivity have gone, almost entirely, to the rich. That has nothing to do with any natural law or boom, but rather a political decision that the country has made. Many of us who advocate for less inequality are advocating for changing the political decision behind the distribution of our wealth increase. For example, had median income, base year 1979, paced productivity, it would have gone from ~50k to ~90k (real). It actually went from ~49k to ... ~54k.

fucking_tragedy 11y ago

Years of lies, propaganda and rhetoric have been internalized. The greatest trick in politics has been the ability to convince people to vote against their own interests. > it's why the unions left in the first place If it was that simple, why are antilabor and unionization laws passed or pushed upon areas that allow freedom of assembly? Many physical laborers recognize the importance of unions and are members. If labor had a way to demand a portion of the productivity gains that went to the rich over the past ~40 years, not much would have changed in terms of lifestyle for the former middle class.

humanrebar 11y ago
> The greatest trick in politics has been the ability to convince people to vote against their own interests. This is more or less the argument Trump fans make when they argue for a border wall, tougher immigration laws, cracking down on Chinese trade, and other protectionist measures. Wishing other people were smarter (like us!) is a terrible thought process and very closed-minded. It's part of the reason partisans talk about each other instead of with each other.

TheGirondin 11y ago

Yes, people certainly love that quote because it means that can simply dismiss anyone who doesn't think the same way they do with having to do any critical thinking on their part to understand the actual reasons they disagree.

wfo 11y ago
Or, instead of assuming malice on the part of anyone who dares to disagree with you, you could recognize that people like it because it's clever and deeply true in a way that maybe you aren't able to see.

crdoconnor 11y ago

Socialism did take root in America. As did communism. They were rooted out and killed (often brutally) while the ruling classes pretended that they withered due to lack of necessity and/or interest. What did you think McCarthyism was all about? Or Ronald Reagan firing the air traffic controllers?

kamaal 11y ago

>>These people are not middle class. They don't have middle class values or sensibilities. The issue is if you've tasted riches for a while, its hard to wash away the feeling that you are some how special and entitled to money, regardless of the choices, decisions and the work you do in your life. Upgrades to a higher lifestyle is easy, downgrades are tougher, painful and emotionally taxing to a lot of people. Never upgrade if you can't sustain.