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We shouldn't be wasting $3 billion a week in Iraq. But, we shouldn't be wasting $2 billion a year to go to the moon either. AFAICT, there's no significant scien

We shouldn't be wasting $3 billion a week in Iraq. But, we shouldn't be wasting $2 billion a year to go to the moon either. AFAICT, there's no significant scientific justification for people to go to the moon or to Mars at this time. Robots can go instead. Previous robot-based Mars missions have been very successful--except for the ones that would have killed everybody on board if they were manned.

ajross 17y ago
Absolutely. This was dumb, and quite frankly a cynical bread-and-circus idea in the first place. There was never any meaningful scientific justification for the project (nor the Mars one that was announced simultaneously). Although the grandparent post is right: relative to other wastes in our government (the Iraq war being by far the biggest discretionary one), this is small potatoes. But $8B is $8B, and it means it doesn't have to be cut elsewhere.
- sailormoon 17y ago
  quite frankly a cynical bread-and-circus idea That may well be the truth. But at least it's a circus founded on science and engineering. The Chinese will be on the moon in a decade minimum, two maximum. When you're sitting at home with the rest of the world watching a large chinese flag being placed on the moon in hi-def colour, what thoughts do you think will be going through your head? I bet it's not "boy, I'm glad we didn't waste that $8 billion back in the day!".
  - briansmith 17y ago
    You are implying that the Chinese going to the moon will harm us. How so? Maybe instead of thinking "Damn, there's a Chinese person on the moon!" we should think "Wow, there's a person on the moon!" and then maybe "But why?"
    - sailormoon 17y ago
      I didn't mean to come across like that. I will be delighted to see a Chinese person on the moon. I will be delighted to see anyone on the moon. What will dismay me is the short-term thinking that led us to squander our lead in the first place. And as for "why" .. why do anything? "Because it's there".
- DannoHung 17y ago
  GAH, why does Hacker News cut off replies at certain points? This is a response to the child of this post talking about Chinese moon missions: My thoughts will entirely depend on just what space development we have done in the intervening years. If some company is beginning an asteroid surveying mission or there is an orbital construction platform, I'm not going to give two damns about what the Chinese are doing with flags. Good for them! If we are going to spend money on space we should stop thinking in terms of spectacle.
  - sailormoon 17y ago
    Here's a trick: if you click the direct link to the post, you can reply there without any cutoffs :D And hey, I agree. If Team USA is building orbital platforms and doing asteroid surveys by then, then I will be utterly delighted. If, however, because of our lack of long-term vision and misplaced priorities, the space exploration arena comes to be utterly dominated by India, Russia, China, the EU and Japan, then I think I will be justified in lamenting the failings of leadership in my own country I perceive today. Well, I'm not even American actually (though I have family who are), but y'know, I feel a sort of inter-westerner kinship ...
sailormoon 17y ago
The original space program paid for itself many times over with multiple technological and engineering advances which benefited the larger economy. One study I saw estimated the dividend as seven-fold, but that seems very low to me. Money spent in technological and engineering development is rarely wasted. And frankly I reckon $8b is worth it in PR benefit alone. Robots don't cut it. There's an irreplaceable excitement in seeing actual living breathing humans doing something incredible. At a time where inspiration and hope is sorely needed - and especially in the fields of science, technology and engineering - cutting the space program seems extraordinarily short-sighted. You could make a valid point that NASA is not the agency for the job, but since the USG seems intent on pissing away every borrowed yuan it can find as fast as possible, I guess I just wish they'd piss it into something I can believe in once in a while.
- ShabbyDoo 17y ago
  "One study I saw estimated the dividend as seven-fold, but that seems very low to me." What is the dividend of leaving billions of dollars in American's pockets?
  - sailormoon 17y ago
    Versus a seven-fold dividend from the space program, you mean? The answer is: minus six times the program cost.
- briansmith 17y ago
  I don't want government to turn a profit. And, government shouldn't be in the excitement/inspiration/hope business. When NASA started, private space exploration was unimaginable. Now, it seems very realistic. It's time to free the engineers at NASA from government bureaucracy by moving them to private industry. The profits/advances from space exploration can stand or fall on their own merit.
  - sailormoon 17y ago
    I don't want government to turn a profit. If the purpose of government isn't to guide a nation to increased prosperity, what is it? Every activity the government undertakes should be with an eye to creating the conditions for future prosperity. Public schooling. Secure borders. Fair and equitable laws. And investment, on a grand scale, in technological progress, like the internet we're using right now. If anything I get wary when the government deviates from that goal. But never fear - if there's one thing the US Government is not doing right now, it's turning a profit.

ajross 17y ago

Absolutely. This was dumb, and quite frankly a cynical bread-and-circus idea in the first place. There was never any meaningful scientific justification for the project (nor the Mars one that was announced simultaneously). Although the grandparent post is right: relative to other wastes in our government (the Iraq war being by far the biggest discretionary one), this is small potatoes. But $8B is $8B, and it means it doesn't have to be cut elsewhere.

sailormoon 17y ago
quite frankly a cynical bread-and-circus idea That may well be the truth. But at least it's a circus founded on science and engineering. The Chinese will be on the moon in a decade minimum, two maximum. When you're sitting at home with the rest of the world watching a large chinese flag being placed on the moon in hi-def colour, what thoughts do you think will be going through your head? I bet it's not "boy, I'm glad we didn't waste that $8 billion back in the day!".
- briansmith 17y ago
  You are implying that the Chinese going to the moon will harm us. How so? Maybe instead of thinking "Damn, there's a Chinese person on the moon!" we should think "Wow, there's a person on the moon!" and then maybe "But why?"
  - sailormoon 17y ago
    I didn't mean to come across like that. I will be delighted to see a Chinese person on the moon. I will be delighted to see anyone on the moon. What will dismay me is the short-term thinking that led us to squander our lead in the first place. And as for "why" .. why do anything? "Because it's there".
DannoHung 17y ago
GAH, why does Hacker News cut off replies at certain points? This is a response to the child of this post talking about Chinese moon missions: My thoughts will entirely depend on just what space development we have done in the intervening years. If some company is beginning an asteroid surveying mission or there is an orbital construction platform, I'm not going to give two damns about what the Chinese are doing with flags. Good for them! If we are going to spend money on space we should stop thinking in terms of spectacle.
- sailormoon 17y ago
  Here's a trick: if you click the direct link to the post, you can reply there without any cutoffs :D And hey, I agree. If Team USA is building orbital platforms and doing asteroid surveys by then, then I will be utterly delighted. If, however, because of our lack of long-term vision and misplaced priorities, the space exploration arena comes to be utterly dominated by India, Russia, China, the EU and Japan, then I think I will be justified in lamenting the failings of leadership in my own country I perceive today. Well, I'm not even American actually (though I have family who are), but y'know, I feel a sort of inter-westerner kinship ...

sailormoon 17y ago

The original space program paid for itself many times over with multiple technological and engineering advances which benefited the larger economy. One study I saw estimated the dividend as seven-fold, but that seems very low to me. Money spent in technological and engineering development is rarely wasted. And frankly I reckon $8b is worth it in PR benefit alone. Robots don't cut it. There's an irreplaceable excitement in seeing actual living breathing humans doing something incredible. At a time where inspiration and hope is sorely needed - and especially in the fields of science, technology and engineering - cutting the space program seems extraordinarily short-sighted. You could make a valid point that NASA is not the agency for the job, but since the USG seems intent on pissing away every borrowed yuan it can find as fast as possible, I guess I just wish they'd piss it into something I can believe in once in a while.

ShabbyDoo 17y ago
"One study I saw estimated the dividend as seven-fold, but that seems very low to me." What is the dividend of leaving billions of dollars in American's pockets?
- sailormoon 17y ago
  Versus a seven-fold dividend from the space program, you mean? The answer is: minus six times the program cost.
briansmith 17y ago
I don't want government to turn a profit. And, government shouldn't be in the excitement/inspiration/hope business. When NASA started, private space exploration was unimaginable. Now, it seems very realistic. It's time to free the engineers at NASA from government bureaucracy by moving them to private industry. The profits/advances from space exploration can stand or fall on their own merit.
- sailormoon 17y ago
  I don't want government to turn a profit. If the purpose of government isn't to guide a nation to increased prosperity, what is it? Every activity the government undertakes should be with an eye to creating the conditions for future prosperity. Public schooling. Secure borders. Fair and equitable laws. And investment, on a grand scale, in technological progress, like the internet we're using right now. If anything I get wary when the government deviates from that goal. But never fear - if there's one thing the US Government is not doing right now, it's turning a profit.