6 ms·

While I enjoyed the article, and I appreciate you posting it, one quibble: it's off-putting whenever anyone mentions a number they got on a test as evidence for

While I enjoyed the article, and I appreciate you posting it, one quibble: it's off-putting whenever anyone mentions a number they got on a test as evidence for intelligence. If you write intelligently, I'll happily consider you intelligent.

btilly 17y ago
I normally don't do that. However for perspective I really wanted to give an idea of how intelligent I consider myself to be, and giving that relatively objective number sounded like the least assholish way I had to convey that to people who don't know me. You'll note that immediately upon giving the number I pointed out that there are issues with that method of measurement and gave an honest self-assessment whose upper range was well below what the number said.
- jlees 17y ago
  That's a fairly common thing to do though. "My IQ is 200, but I don't believe in IQ tests. By the way did I mention my IQ was 200?" (Joking aside, I think you conveyed it pretty well, though I have no real clue what a GRE score of nearly 20 years ago means relatively speaking, or how you can convert it into a measure of intelligence at all...)
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  - btilly 17y ago
    I don't see the site I used to estimate my IQ before. But http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/psychology/iq-conversion.html http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/psychology/iq-conversion.html presents a calculator. And if you google around you can find other conversion charts that vary slightly from each other.
    - dschobel 17y ago
      Again... why worry about converting to/from a figure most people are skeptical of as representative of anything meaningful?
    - jlees 17y ago
      I could create a conversion calculator and it'd still be pretty meaningless. I just don't really understand how you can draw a direct comparison - it's not like the tests are that similar, although there is some overlap, and even using percentile of people taking the GRE is presumably pandering slightly to the fact it's a self-selecting audience and therefore not necessarily a bell curve, etc. I don't know, perhaps there are real proper studies on this to satisfy the lack of real science that's niggling me here, but given the grey area of 'measuring intelligence' I don't know how well-founded any of those are either. Add to that the fact that things change as you age - I scored jolly well on an IQ test when I was 14, which gives me a nice score to slap down posturing pseudo-intellectual guys who like to compare mental dicksize at parties, but I'm well aware that I'd score nowhere near that now. I don't know. As I say, I think you brought it up well, I just don't quite see the relevance. (Weirdly, though, converting the GRE score I got when I was 21 on that calculator results in almost exactly the IQ score I got when I was 14; perhaps there is something to it..!)
    - nostrademons 17y ago
      2340 on the calculator puts you at the 100th percentile, and at about 2100 on the pre-95 SAT (which only went up to 1600). You sure this has the right version of the score?
      - btilly 17y ago
        The GRE has 3 parts. Verbal, analytical and quantitative. For that you're supposed to put in the sum of the first 2 of them, not the sum of all three. I got 800 on the quantitative part, so put in 1540.
- elblanco 17y ago
  I'm surprised you don't know your own IQ score. I couldn't even make it to middle-school without having undergone a battery of at least a half-dozen IQ and aptitude evaluations. By the time I made it out of High School I knew probably more than any person should know about their own intelligence and had a pretty clear idea of the range my IQ would fall into as well as my learning styles, cognitive strengths and weaknesses, perceptual processes, learning disabilities, talents and gifts and aptitude scores on at least 3 standardized exams, and various other cognitive measures. And I went to Public School.
  - RK 17y ago
    Or maybe because you went to public school.
  - btilly 17y ago
    Where I grew up in Canada we didn't bother with all of that. The SATs and GREs are the only standardized tests I've taken. And I only took those because I was considering going to US schools. If you're curious, on the SATs I got 1300. (For the younger people in the audience, the SATs were rescaled, that score was a lot better then than it would be now.) I believe that I'd have done better if I wasn't sick that day. Having to get up between sections to go vomit in the bathroom is not exactly good for your concentration...
    - elblanco 17y ago
      It may sound crazy after my previous comment, but I never took the SATs or GREs, GMATs etc. I managed to slip through schooling using a couple loopholes and skip the entrance exams all the way to my M.S.
  - Retric 17y ago
    I had all that same testing, but my parents would not tell me my scores. PS: I was classified as Exceptionally Gifted / Learning Disabled and I am perfectly happy to leave it as that. In theory I could take another IQ test, but I think I am a little old to focus on my potential. IMO, your potential is only important when you have yet to accomplish anything.
- tokenadult 17y ago
  "The closest thing that I have to an estimate for my IQ is scoring 2340 on the GRE exam in 1991. Based on conversions that I've seen, that puts me at about the top 0.01% in IQ. Now I was really "on" that day, happen to believe that there are problems with the measurement of intelligence by an IQ test (a subject which I may devote a future blog post to), but without false modesty I wouldn't be surprised to find that I'm as high as being in the top 0.1% in general intelligence (however that could be measured)." I see you got snarky replies for writing this. But I'm glad you did. I look forward to seeing you post somewhere, with discussion of the post here on HN, about the issues with IQ tests. Anyone else who likes to discuss the issue of what to think about IQ tests is someone whose thoughts I'd like to read on a new thread http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1093619 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1093619 about an article several friends told me about today.
- statictype 17y ago
  While I don't doubt your smart, I distrust the use of GRE scores for that. I got a 2280 on mine, which isn't too bad, but I had a lot of friends who were significantly smarter than me but didn't do quite as well on the test. At that point, I realized, it was dangerous to correlate GRE (or SAT for that matter) scores with IQ.
  - elblanco 17y ago
    It may also be dangerous to correlate IQ with intelligence as well.
  - btilly 17y ago
    Given the design of the GRE, SAT, and standard IQ tests, correlating them with each other is actually on safer ground than correlating any with intelligence. Actually thinking of intelligence as a one-dimensional thing is dangerous in and of itself.
ja27 17y ago
I guess it's a bad sign that it took me a few seconds to figure out whether he included the analytical section in his score.
alexgartrell 17y ago
Having read this article, numerous other articles, heard from Google Employees in large and small settings, and knowing a few Google Interns, I can say one thing with absolute confidence. Google Engineers know that they're the best engineers, ever. I've always found it offputting, but maybe I'm just jealous or something. edit: Worth adding that this is a common thing among many engineers. Also, I know and like a number of Google interns (and engineers). All that said though, the one expression I've heard more than anything else is "Google hires smart people".
- jheriko 17y ago
  That can't be right... because I /know/ that games programmers are the best engineers, and Google doesn't make games... ;)
  - gridspy 17y ago
    The best engineers willing to work in low pay, crunch environments and high staff turnover.
    - chipsy 17y ago
      i.e. the engineers who are more interested in solving problems than in monetary incentives.
  - nostrademons 17y ago
    There're a bunch of ex-games-programmers at Google. One of my interviewers used to do 3D shooters and stuff before she came to Google. And Amit Patel, the co-creator of "Don't be evil" and one of the initial architects behind AdWords, runs a pretty popular game programming website.
  - neilk 17y ago
    Google makes games... just not very well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Lively http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Lively Ok, that's a bit harsh perhaps. In its favor it was a decent idea to merge social gaming and the web, perhaps a bit ahead of its time. I could easily see 3D elements as commonplace on the web in 2012 or so. And then there's: http://images.google.com/imagelabeler/ http://images.google.com/imagelabeler/ Which is the same concept as Luis von Ahn's ESP Game, only Googlified and drained of any interface elements that would make the thing actually fun.
JesseAldridge 17y ago
Why should that be off-putting? Standardized tests are pretty much the only way to objectively measure intelligence. Writing ability doesn't capture stuff like mathematical skill. Yes, yes, tests are imperfect. Everyone understands this. But they're the best measurement we have -- short of getting to know someone over the course of a few months or years. Also, tests, because of the way they establish some people as "better" than others, can be very bad for maintaining social harmony. But social harmony isn't a good reason to beat around the bush when one's intelligence is essential to the conversation. People should accept reality. Edit: And, no, I'm saying this because I have a super-genius level iq. I don't.
- jheriko 17y ago
  I dunno about others but when I read it sounded a little arrogant. For example, I have a Mensa gold certificate saying that I scored in the top 0.5% percentile on a test (actual IQ scores vary based on the type of test but mine was 143.5). Sounds pretty arrogant, eh? Generally any statement that equates to "I am intelligent" gets taken this way.
  - wtallis 17y ago
    Any sentence containing the word "Mensa" is arrogant.
    - waterlesscloud 17y ago
      Once in college, I was meeting with my advisor, who was also the department head. He had all my school records, including my test scores. He said something about me qualifying to join Mensa if I wanted, and I said something about not liking Mensa since everyone I'd met who had been in the organization seemed arrogant. It was only later that I realized he must have been in Mensa himself and was recruiting me. Proving I wasn't nearly as smart as my test scores indicated.
    - portman 17y ago
      My initial reaction was "Mensa?! Are they still around?". So I head over to http://www.mensa.org/ http://www.mensa.org/ ... If there are any Mensa members reading this, you really need to update your website if you want to be taken seriously. OnMouseOver/OnMouseOut makes it look like you're stuck in 1998.

btilly 17y ago

I normally don't do that. However for perspective I really wanted to give an idea of how intelligent I consider myself to be, and giving that relatively objective number sounded like the least assholish way I had to convey that to people who don't know me. You'll note that immediately upon giving the number I pointed out that there are issues with that method of measurement and gave an honest self-assessment whose upper range was well below what the number said.

jlees 17y ago
That's a fairly common thing to do though. "My IQ is 200, but I don't believe in IQ tests. By the way did I mention my IQ was 200?" (Joking aside, I think you conveyed it pretty well, though I have no real clue what a GRE score of nearly 20 years ago means relatively speaking, or how you can convert it into a measure of intelligence at all...)
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- btilly 17y ago
  I don't see the site I used to estimate my IQ before. But http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/psychology/iq-conversion.html http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/psychology/iq-conversion.html presents a calculator. And if you google around you can find other conversion charts that vary slightly from each other.
  - dschobel 17y ago
    Again... why worry about converting to/from a figure most people are skeptical of as representative of anything meaningful?
  - jlees 17y ago
    I could create a conversion calculator and it'd still be pretty meaningless. I just don't really understand how you can draw a direct comparison - it's not like the tests are that similar, although there is some overlap, and even using percentile of people taking the GRE is presumably pandering slightly to the fact it's a self-selecting audience and therefore not necessarily a bell curve, etc. I don't know, perhaps there are real proper studies on this to satisfy the lack of real science that's niggling me here, but given the grey area of 'measuring intelligence' I don't know how well-founded any of those are either. Add to that the fact that things change as you age - I scored jolly well on an IQ test when I was 14, which gives me a nice score to slap down posturing pseudo-intellectual guys who like to compare mental dicksize at parties, but I'm well aware that I'd score nowhere near that now. I don't know. As I say, I think you brought it up well, I just don't quite see the relevance. (Weirdly, though, converting the GRE score I got when I was 21 on that calculator results in almost exactly the IQ score I got when I was 14; perhaps there is something to it..!)
  - nostrademons 17y ago
    2340 on the calculator puts you at the 100th percentile, and at about 2100 on the pre-95 SAT (which only went up to 1600). You sure this has the right version of the score?
    - btilly 17y ago
      The GRE has 3 parts. Verbal, analytical and quantitative. For that you're supposed to put in the sum of the first 2 of them, not the sum of all three. I got 800 on the quantitative part, so put in 1540.
elblanco 17y ago
I'm surprised you don't know your own IQ score. I couldn't even make it to middle-school without having undergone a battery of at least a half-dozen IQ and aptitude evaluations. By the time I made it out of High School I knew probably more than any person should know about their own intelligence and had a pretty clear idea of the range my IQ would fall into as well as my learning styles, cognitive strengths and weaknesses, perceptual processes, learning disabilities, talents and gifts and aptitude scores on at least 3 standardized exams, and various other cognitive measures. And I went to Public School.
- RK 17y ago
  Or maybe because you went to public school.
- btilly 17y ago
  Where I grew up in Canada we didn't bother with all of that. The SATs and GREs are the only standardized tests I've taken. And I only took those because I was considering going to US schools. If you're curious, on the SATs I got 1300. (For the younger people in the audience, the SATs were rescaled, that score was a lot better then than it would be now.) I believe that I'd have done better if I wasn't sick that day. Having to get up between sections to go vomit in the bathroom is not exactly good for your concentration...
  - elblanco 17y ago
    It may sound crazy after my previous comment, but I never took the SATs or GREs, GMATs etc. I managed to slip through schooling using a couple loopholes and skip the entrance exams all the way to my M.S.
- Retric 17y ago
  I had all that same testing, but my parents would not tell me my scores. PS: I was classified as Exceptionally Gifted / Learning Disabled and I am perfectly happy to leave it as that. In theory I could take another IQ test, but I think I am a little old to focus on my potential. IMO, your potential is only important when you have yet to accomplish anything.
tokenadult 17y ago
"The closest thing that I have to an estimate for my IQ is scoring 2340 on the GRE exam in 1991. Based on conversions that I've seen, that puts me at about the top 0.01% in IQ. Now I was really "on" that day, happen to believe that there are problems with the measurement of intelligence by an IQ test (a subject which I may devote a future blog post to), but without false modesty I wouldn't be surprised to find that I'm as high as being in the top 0.1% in general intelligence (however that could be measured)." I see you got snarky replies for writing this. But I'm glad you did. I look forward to seeing you post somewhere, with discussion of the post here on HN, about the issues with IQ tests. Anyone else who likes to discuss the issue of what to think about IQ tests is someone whose thoughts I'd like to read on a new thread http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1093619 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1093619 about an article several friends told me about today.
statictype 17y ago
While I don't doubt your smart, I distrust the use of GRE scores for that. I got a 2280 on mine, which isn't too bad, but I had a lot of friends who were significantly smarter than me but didn't do quite as well on the test. At that point, I realized, it was dangerous to correlate GRE (or SAT for that matter) scores with IQ.
- elblanco 17y ago
  It may also be dangerous to correlate IQ with intelligence as well.
- btilly 17y ago
  Given the design of the GRE, SAT, and standard IQ tests, correlating them with each other is actually on safer ground than correlating any with intelligence. Actually thinking of intelligence as a one-dimensional thing is dangerous in and of itself.

ja27 17y ago

I guess it's a bad sign that it took me a few seconds to figure out whether he included the analytical section in his score.

alexgartrell 17y ago

Having read this article, numerous other articles, heard from Google Employees in large and small settings, and knowing a few Google Interns, I can say one thing with absolute confidence. Google Engineers know that they're the best engineers, ever. I've always found it offputting, but maybe I'm just jealous or something. edit: Worth adding that this is a common thing among many engineers. Also, I know and like a number of Google interns (and engineers). All that said though, the one expression I've heard more than anything else is "Google hires smart people".

jheriko 17y ago
That can't be right... because I /know/ that games programmers are the best engineers, and Google doesn't make games... ;)
- gridspy 17y ago
  The best engineers willing to work in low pay, crunch environments and high staff turnover.
  - chipsy 17y ago
    i.e. the engineers who are more interested in solving problems than in monetary incentives.
- nostrademons 17y ago
  There're a bunch of ex-games-programmers at Google. One of my interviewers used to do 3D shooters and stuff before she came to Google. And Amit Patel, the co-creator of "Don't be evil" and one of the initial architects behind AdWords, runs a pretty popular game programming website.
- neilk 17y ago
  Google makes games... just not very well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Lively http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Lively Ok, that's a bit harsh perhaps. In its favor it was a decent idea to merge social gaming and the web, perhaps a bit ahead of its time. I could easily see 3D elements as commonplace on the web in 2012 or so. And then there's: http://images.google.com/imagelabeler/ http://images.google.com/imagelabeler/ Which is the same concept as Luis von Ahn's ESP Game, only Googlified and drained of any interface elements that would make the thing actually fun.

JesseAldridge 17y ago

Why should that be off-putting? Standardized tests are pretty much the only way to objectively measure intelligence. Writing ability doesn't capture stuff like mathematical skill. Yes, yes, tests are imperfect. Everyone understands this. But they're the best measurement we have -- short of getting to know someone over the course of a few months or years. Also, tests, because of the way they establish some people as "better" than others, can be very bad for maintaining social harmony. But social harmony isn't a good reason to beat around the bush when one's intelligence is essential to the conversation. People should accept reality. Edit: And, no, I'm saying this because I have a super-genius level iq. I don't.

jheriko 17y ago
I dunno about others but when I read it sounded a little arrogant. For example, I have a Mensa gold certificate saying that I scored in the top 0.5% percentile on a test (actual IQ scores vary based on the type of test but mine was 143.5). Sounds pretty arrogant, eh? Generally any statement that equates to "I am intelligent" gets taken this way.
- wtallis 17y ago
  Any sentence containing the word "Mensa" is arrogant.
  - waterlesscloud 17y ago
    Once in college, I was meeting with my advisor, who was also the department head. He had all my school records, including my test scores. He said something about me qualifying to join Mensa if I wanted, and I said something about not liking Mensa since everyone I'd met who had been in the organization seemed arrogant. It was only later that I realized he must have been in Mensa himself and was recruiting me. Proving I wasn't nearly as smart as my test scores indicated.
  - portman 17y ago
    My initial reaction was "Mensa?! Are they still around?". So I head over to http://www.mensa.org/ http://www.mensa.org/ ... If there are any Mensa members reading this, you really need to update your website if you want to be taken seriously. OnMouseOver/OnMouseOut makes it look like you're stuck in 1998.