3 ms·

Are we attempting to wash away history? It seems like this article and a lot of comments are insinuating women's rights have only decreased in the last 40 years

by dikdik 11y ago

Are we attempting to wash away history? It seems like this article and a lot of comments are insinuating women's rights have only decreased in the last 40 years. WHAT. My mother, born in 1955, was told by her father there was no reason for her to take algebra or any type of math in high school because she wouldn't need it. Maybe the upper class women of yesterday are just lamenting the death of chivalry. I don't know. I often wonder why bro-ish types are chastised for being who they want to be. I get why it's bad when it becomes overbearing and crowds out diversity. Yet it seems bro = stupid, terrible, provide no value, and a bigot. I know some great, intelligent guys that are pretty bro-y. It gets old when we have to constantly champion weakness, meekness, and discourage confidence. While a complete bro culture can be toxic, I've worked in majority-woman departments where the gossiping and backstabbing is just as toxic.

ianamartin 11y ago
I'm not in any way trying to wash away history, and I am not trying to imply that women's rights have only decreased since the 50s. I'm suggesting that there is a larger pattern operating here that is potentially more complicated than "things used to suck; now they are getting better, but not fast enough in STEM." I agree with you that women are discouraged from entering certain fields. My mother (b. 1941) wanted to be a doctor, and her father didn't see the point. She ended up meeting my father in a German class and falling for him (he was the prof) and she ended up going the route of a German professor. Of course we know that women are still discouraged from entering certain fields. I'm not arguing that they are not. I'm wondering if there are background signals in play here that drive women out of the fields that they are encouraged to get into. As for bro culture, it gets chastised because it's toxic by definition, in my experience. Bro culture--to me--is quite a lot more than what you are describing it as. I'm not meek, week, and I'm not lacking in confidence. You can be all those things and still be very far from bro. It's the stupid, terrible, provide no value, racist, sexist, bigot kind of people who walk around fist bumping and saying things like, "Dude, did we totally rape that bitch into submission, or what?!" when talking about "solving" a "hard" problem that are toxic. It's the kind of people who think that ping pong tables and free beer make up for an utterly shitty working environment. It's the kind of people who are completely and totally unable to think that some people would want something other than what they want out of a job. In other words, bro culture is marked by all the things you say it is "chastised" for, but not for those things in themselves. After all, we are all human and exhibit certain elements of all those things in ourselves. Bro culture celebrates stupidity, terrible-ness, sexism, and bigotry--and bro culture is entirely lacking empathy for anyone who is not a part of it. I'm not saying anything about you or anyone you know. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it. I'm describing the characteristics that people deride when talking about it. * I have no input about majority-women departments. I can certainly see how gossiping and backstabbing is toxic. I'll leave the criticism of those things to people who are in a position to do something about it. I'm a mid-30s white male technologist. I can do something about bro culture. Not so much I can do about women gossiping and backstabbing.

by dikdik 11y ago

ianamartin 11y ago

I'm not in any way trying to wash away history, and I am not trying to imply that women's rights have only decreased since the 50s. I'm suggesting that there is a larger pattern operating here that is potentially more complicated than "things used to suck; now they are getting better, but not fast enough in STEM." I agree with you that women are discouraged from entering certain fields. My mother (b. 1941) wanted to be a doctor, and her father didn't see the point. She ended up meeting my father in a German class and falling for him (he was the prof) and she ended up going the route of a German professor. Of course we know that women are still discouraged from entering certain fields. I'm not arguing that they are not. I'm wondering if there are background signals in play here that drive women out of the fields that they are encouraged to get into. As for bro culture, it gets chastised because it's toxic by definition, in my experience. Bro culture--to me--is quite a lot more than what you are describing it as. I'm not meek, week, and I'm not lacking in confidence. You can be all those things and still be very far from bro. It's the stupid, terrible, provide no value, racist, sexist, bigot kind of people who walk around fist bumping and saying things like, "Dude, did we totally rape that bitch into submission, or what?!" when talking about "solving" a "hard" problem that are toxic. It's the kind of people who think that ping pong tables and free beer make up for an utterly shitty working environment. It's the kind of people who are completely and totally unable to think that some people would want something other than what they want out of a job. In other words, bro culture is marked by all the things you say it is "chastised" for, but not for those things in themselves. After all, we are all human and exhibit certain elements of all those things in ourselves. Bro culture celebrates stupidity, terrible-ness, sexism, and bigotry--and bro culture is entirely lacking empathy for anyone who is not a part of it. I'm not saying anything about you or anyone you know. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it. I'm describing the characteristics that people deride when talking about it. * I have no input about majority-women departments. I can certainly see how gossiping and backstabbing is toxic. I'll leave the criticism of those things to people who are in a position to do something about it. I'm a mid-30s white male technologist. I can do something about bro culture. Not so much I can do about women gossiping and backstabbing.