4 ms·

I never know if it's nostalgia or not, but I've often felt the same way - that the younger generation of geeks, thanks to one part 4chan and one part Silicon Va

by Pxtl 11y ago

I never know if it's nostalgia or not, but I've often felt the same way - that the younger generation of geeks, thanks to one part 4chan and one part Silicon Valley mercantilism, has gotten a very twisted attitude about nerd gender dynamics that's quite different from the idealists of my youth.

exstudent2 11y ago
I think 4chan and Silicon Valley mercantilism are themselves a symptom of public education's failure in general and towards boys in particular. Boys are struggling in many areas in western society. They happen to be succeeding in tech. It's no wonder they're edgy about letting outsiders manipulate the field. Silicon Valley preaches individual achievement and personal responsibility. No doubt boys often needed those skills to survive an education system designed around them. Feminism often pushes for change at the institutional level, not for individual accountability thus the tension IMO.
- nikdaheratik 11y ago
  I think your opinion is flawed. You seem to be giving Feminism and Education in general too little credit for their good intentions (which are basically, woman being treated equally as men) and way too much credit for their impact on society. People don't found startups because of Feminism, or something they learned in a classroom, or even from listening to some unicorn founder preaching "personal responsibility". They found it as a way to make money doing something interesting instead of super boring CRUD problems. More than that, your opinion about education seems to not actual support the fact that fewer women are going into Computer Science and related fields than were in the 80s. If it was all down to education/politics, and there's more money now in this field than there was then, why has that ratio gone down? OTOH, if the people making the hiring decisions at startups are choosing to not hire women (consciously or not) and those decisions are trickling into the rest of the midsize companies, then maybe there's something wrong with the hiring process itself.
  - exstudent2 11y ago
    I'm sure their intentions are good, most people's are. In general there are fewer men participating in higher education than women: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_306.10.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_306.10.a... 2012 shows enrollment at: 43% male, 57% female = 14% difference In my original comment I said that men are succeeding in tech and not much else. I think these numbers show that. If there are fewer women going into CS then it's not the hiring process that's the problem, it's a supply issue. People have many reasons to create startups, but the decision to make one is way down the pipeline of where any issue lies. What makes someone passionate enough about technology that they choose to study it, pursue it as a career and eventually maybe do a startup? That question gets answered early in life and doesn't have to be the same for everyone. Women don't have to be interested in technology. They should be given the same opportunities as men if they are though and from everything I've ever seen in our industry, they are.
  - malandrew 11y ago
    which are basically, woman being treated equally as men There isn't one feminism. There are at least two major camps that I can identify. There is the one you mention that promotes a policy of equality and there is another camp that promotes a policy of equity. The goals of equality and equity are not the same, the methods to achieve them are not the same and often those in those camps consider the tactics of the other camp counterproductive or ineffective. TBH, this dichotomy isn't even a feature isolated to feminism, but is a basic feature with most -isms and movements (for or against). There are those from one side that work towards equality and those that work towards equity, and on the other side there are those that work towards inequality and those that work towards inequity. An approach for equality or inequality starts with promoting an idea or attitude to achieve a change in treatment. An approach for equity or inequity jumps straight to seeking for arbitrarily chosen, unequal, and unnatural changes in treatment that breeds resentment because there is no establishment of understanding between both sides. Changes in attitude follow after the changes from a need to resolve cognitive dissonance (which leads to all sorts of zany, invented and often polar justifications for the unnatural changes (because of equity promotes an "us versus them" dichotomy instead of a unifying attitude of "we"))
  - 11y ago

by Pxtl 11y ago

exstudent2 11y ago

I think 4chan and Silicon Valley mercantilism are themselves a symptom of public education's failure in general and towards boys in particular. Boys are struggling in many areas in western society. They happen to be succeeding in tech. It's no wonder they're edgy about letting outsiders manipulate the field. Silicon Valley preaches individual achievement and personal responsibility. No doubt boys often needed those skills to survive an education system designed around them. Feminism often pushes for change at the institutional level, not for individual accountability thus the tension IMO.

nikdaheratik 11y ago
I think your opinion is flawed. You seem to be giving Feminism and Education in general too little credit for their good intentions (which are basically, woman being treated equally as men) and way too much credit for their impact on society. People don't found startups because of Feminism, or something they learned in a classroom, or even from listening to some unicorn founder preaching "personal responsibility". They found it as a way to make money doing something interesting instead of super boring CRUD problems. More than that, your opinion about education seems to not actual support the fact that fewer women are going into Computer Science and related fields than were in the 80s. If it was all down to education/politics, and there's more money now in this field than there was then, why has that ratio gone down? OTOH, if the people making the hiring decisions at startups are choosing to not hire women (consciously or not) and those decisions are trickling into the rest of the midsize companies, then maybe there's something wrong with the hiring process itself.
- exstudent2 11y ago
  I'm sure their intentions are good, most people's are. In general there are fewer men participating in higher education than women: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_306.10.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_306.10.a... 2012 shows enrollment at: 43% male, 57% female = 14% difference In my original comment I said that men are succeeding in tech and not much else. I think these numbers show that. If there are fewer women going into CS then it's not the hiring process that's the problem, it's a supply issue. People have many reasons to create startups, but the decision to make one is way down the pipeline of where any issue lies. What makes someone passionate enough about technology that they choose to study it, pursue it as a career and eventually maybe do a startup? That question gets answered early in life and doesn't have to be the same for everyone. Women don't have to be interested in technology. They should be given the same opportunities as men if they are though and from everything I've ever seen in our industry, they are.
- malandrew 11y ago
  which are basically, woman being treated equally as men There isn't one feminism. There are at least two major camps that I can identify. There is the one you mention that promotes a policy of equality and there is another camp that promotes a policy of equity. The goals of equality and equity are not the same, the methods to achieve them are not the same and often those in those camps consider the tactics of the other camp counterproductive or ineffective. TBH, this dichotomy isn't even a feature isolated to feminism, but is a basic feature with most -isms and movements (for or against). There are those from one side that work towards equality and those that work towards equity, and on the other side there are those that work towards inequality and those that work towards inequity. An approach for equality or inequality starts with promoting an idea or attitude to achieve a change in treatment. An approach for equity or inequity jumps straight to seeking for arbitrarily chosen, unequal, and unnatural changes in treatment that breeds resentment because there is no establishment of understanding between both sides. Changes in attitude follow after the changes from a need to resolve cognitive dissonance (which leads to all sorts of zany, invented and often polar justifications for the unnatural changes (because of equity promotes an "us versus them" dichotomy instead of a unifying attitude of "we"))
- 11y ago