4 ms·

You seem to be taking a pure statistical approach yet ignoring OPs specific complaints with tech workplace . I don't see her saying that more women should be pr

You seem to be taking a pure statistical approach yet ignoring OPs specific complaints with tech workplace . I don't see her saying that more women should be programmers . Rather that they are treated with a level of condescension even in cases of extreme cred/achievements . At least that's what I got out of reading it

such_a_casual 11y ago
I agree, I am straying away from the author's main point. Which is clearly that the programming work place has become a worse place for women. As far as that thesis is concerned, I think it's far more likely that her transition to the younger, more hipster Ruby on Rails ecosystem is far more likely the culprit than her, "the world is going to shit" hypothesis. Her arguments are also wildly up for interpretation: "you did surprisingly well on that programming test" or flak for not "stepping up". These things may have absolutely nothing to do with her gender for all we know. Maybe events in her life or simply the process of aging has made her shift towards a more gender sensitive mindset. We have no way of separating her bias from the events, or using time as an accurate measurement when she admits she switched to a new ecosystem. In short, I think her actual argument is so weak, it wasn't even worth having a discourse about. What I think is far more important is this idea that's being perpetuated that tech is this special place that scares away women. When the reality is that other fields just have more to offer.
- MollyR 11y ago
  I suspect her issues were due to age, and microsoft stack /enterprise" experience moving into a younger scene like Rails/Django. I heard stuff all the time against people using visual studio, and god forbid they ever used Microsoft SQL Server instead of Postgres. Applicants got put through the wringer during interviews at my last job. The CTO, She literally scoffed during interviews when people mentioned microsoft's enterprise stack.
- dang 11y ago
  > her "the world is going to shit" hypothesis I see no such hypothesis in the article. Your comments in this thread have taken it in precisely the wrong direction: tedious, predictable, and acrimonious. Please don't do this here.
  - such_a_casual 11y ago
    Then you and I are reading the article completely differently than I am: > Or maybe you're just not a good 'team fit'. It's tough to pass a brogrammer interview. At the other end, it's too easy to push experienced technical women into 'project manager' and administrative roles, and eventually we flip the table. Brogrammers at one end of the pipeline, flipped tables at the other. The article definitely strikes me as a "world is going to shit" hypothesis since it starts out in the beautiful era of the past and takes the reader to the ugly era of the present. I'm sorry that you disagree with me so strongly on my reading of the article. I understand that my original comment was too off-topic, and belonged more in its own thread rather than as a response to the post. However, it is unfair to say that I meant harm by sharing that I think gender issues are much larger than the tech field, and that we do them an injustice by thinking of gender discrimination as a problem internal to programming, engineering, science, etc. Because in a tech centric place it's easy to think these issues are unique to our fields. Please understand that sometimes sharing an opinion like this is going to incite people regardless of how it's presented. Some people think expressing an opinion like this somehow says that there is no gender inequality in tech. When all I said was that we need to look at external rather than internal reasons.
    - puredemo 11y ago
      He's a professional tone policer, I wouldn't read too much into it. Literally fluctuates between DH0 and DH2 on nearly all of his comments. [1] It's just articulate name-calling. Wouldn't want someone's perspective to be too tedious, would we? Tsk tsk tsk. [1] http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html
mason240 11y ago
>You seem to be taking a pure statistical approach yet ignoring OPs specific complaints with tech workplace That's what smart people do: ignore anecdotes, look at actual data.

such_a_casual 11y ago

I agree, I am straying away from the author's main point. Which is clearly that the programming work place has become a worse place for women. As far as that thesis is concerned, I think it's far more likely that her transition to the younger, more hipster Ruby on Rails ecosystem is far more likely the culprit than her, "the world is going to shit" hypothesis. Her arguments are also wildly up for interpretation: "you did surprisingly well on that programming test" or flak for not "stepping up". These things may have absolutely nothing to do with her gender for all we know. Maybe events in her life or simply the process of aging has made her shift towards a more gender sensitive mindset. We have no way of separating her bias from the events, or using time as an accurate measurement when she admits she switched to a new ecosystem. In short, I think her actual argument is so weak, it wasn't even worth having a discourse about. What I think is far more important is this idea that's being perpetuated that tech is this special place that scares away women. When the reality is that other fields just have more to offer.

MollyR 11y ago
I suspect her issues were due to age, and microsoft stack /enterprise" experience moving into a younger scene like Rails/Django. I heard stuff all the time against people using visual studio, and god forbid they ever used Microsoft SQL Server instead of Postgres. Applicants got put through the wringer during interviews at my last job. The CTO, She literally scoffed during interviews when people mentioned microsoft's enterprise stack.
dang 11y ago
> her "the world is going to shit" hypothesis I see no such hypothesis in the article. Your comments in this thread have taken it in precisely the wrong direction: tedious, predictable, and acrimonious. Please don't do this here.
- such_a_casual 11y ago
  Then you and I are reading the article completely differently than I am: > Or maybe you're just not a good 'team fit'. It's tough to pass a brogrammer interview. At the other end, it's too easy to push experienced technical women into 'project manager' and administrative roles, and eventually we flip the table. Brogrammers at one end of the pipeline, flipped tables at the other. The article definitely strikes me as a "world is going to shit" hypothesis since it starts out in the beautiful era of the past and takes the reader to the ugly era of the present. I'm sorry that you disagree with me so strongly on my reading of the article. I understand that my original comment was too off-topic, and belonged more in its own thread rather than as a response to the post. However, it is unfair to say that I meant harm by sharing that I think gender issues are much larger than the tech field, and that we do them an injustice by thinking of gender discrimination as a problem internal to programming, engineering, science, etc. Because in a tech centric place it's easy to think these issues are unique to our fields. Please understand that sometimes sharing an opinion like this is going to incite people regardless of how it's presented. Some people think expressing an opinion like this somehow says that there is no gender inequality in tech. When all I said was that we need to look at external rather than internal reasons.
  - puredemo 11y ago
    He's a professional tone policer, I wouldn't read too much into it. Literally fluctuates between DH0 and DH2 on nearly all of his comments. [1] It's just articulate name-calling. Wouldn't want someone's perspective to be too tedious, would we? Tsk tsk tsk. [1] http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html

mason240 11y ago

>You seem to be taking a pure statistical approach yet ignoring OPs specific complaints with tech workplace That's what smart people do: ignore anecdotes, look at actual data.