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seriously ? Are we talking about same SA that sponsors radical islamists and islamic schools all around the world and delivers weapons and money to radical isla

• kobayashi 11y ago
  The Saudi regime and it's population are two different groups of people. Most of the sponsoring of violent Islamists abroad is done by the Wahhabi establishment, not the regime. Though, the regime does lay the groundwork for much of the Wahhabi proselytizing by its sponsoring of madrassas abroad. So, the Saudi Regime does a lot of absolutely abhorrent shit, and so do it's people. But without the regime we'd probably be in a worse-off place. >delivers weapons and money to radical islamists in Syria which fuels the civil war The civil war is being fuelled by Iran's support for the Assad regime, both directly and by it's proxy, Hezbollah. The draw for radicals to fight in Syria is the Assad regime. >SA that hangs a shiite cleric as an atempt to sabotage the atom deal I definitely wouldn't say that the execution of Nimr was an attempt to sabotage the nuclear deal. There's really no evidence of that, and it's illogical because there's almost no way it could do that. Read the Pollack article above to understand the likely reason as to why SA killed him. I can't believe I'm hear almost defending Saudi Arabia. I just think they're less despicable than Iran, but both are absolutely abhorrent. Both regimes push their own version of violent Islamism and are a pox on the world.
  • timeu 11y ago
    >So, the Saudi Regime does a lot of absolutely abhorrent shit, and so do it's people. But without the regime we'd probably be in a worse-off place. I think the SA regime is the single biggest reason why the population is still stuck in the middle ages (but what do you expect of a regime that treats woman like second class citizen). The money from oil might hide this fact a bit but SA has virtually no cultural or civilizing accomplishments >The civil war is being fuelled by Iran's support for the Assad regime, both directly and by it's proxy, Hezbollah. Iran and Russia have supported Assad way before the civil war started. 6 years ago I was in Damascus and Deir ez-Zor and there was no signs of a civil war. Don't get me wrong, the Assad regime is restrictive and brutal but if those radical jihadists supported by SA, Katar and Turkey win, it will be much much worse. Just take the groups hat were invited to the "opposition talks" in Riad (Jaysh al-Islam, etc). If you watch the videos on liveleak you see all those groups running around with TOWs and modern weapons. > definitely wouldn't say that the execution of Nimr was an attempt to sabotage the nuclear deal. What else was it ? Killing a important shiite cleric is nothing but fueling the secterian conflict and the reaction was the descruction of the SA embassy in Teheran. Luckily the Iranian government (especially the moderate ones like Rohani,Zarif) decided not to escalate further. But this was a clear attempt to provocate a stupid reaction from the iranian side. Nimr was no threat to SA and if you really think that a cleric is thread to a regime like SA, then it's probably better if this regime vanishes rather earlier than later. > I just think they're less despicable than Iran If you really think that, then you don't know much about Iran or its history. Apart from the fact that Iran is one of the oldest cultures in the world, the population and especially woman are highly educated. In SA until recently woman couldn't even drive or vote or go out without a male accompanying them. 2009 millions of young iranians went to the streets to protest against voter fraud and before the revolution, Iran was a quite free and progressive. So even tough the regimes might be both religious fanatics, Iran is still light years ahead of SA in terms of civil society and culture.
    • kobayashi 11y ago
      >I think the SA regime is the single biggest reason why the population is still stuck in the middle ages (but what do you expect of a regime that treats woman like second class citizen). I'm not sure if the regime is the reason for the repressive Islamist culture of Saudi Arabia. While they enforce the Wahhabi establishment's strict version of Sharia, the regime draws its legitimacy from the religious establishment. Essentially, my guess is that the SA regime is actually a pretty accurate reflection of the will of the Sunni majority, and might even be more moderate than the populace. If we're talking about treating women like second-class citizens, Iran is definitely in the same boat, even if they have moderately more rights than do women in SA. >Iran and Russia have supported Assad way before the civil war started. 6 years ago I was in Damascus and Deir ez-Zor and there was no signs of a civil war. Don't get me wrong, the Assad regime is restrictive and brutal but if those radical jihadists supported by SA, Katar and Turkey win, it will be much much worse. Just take the groups hat were invited to the "opposition talks" in Riad (Jaysh al-Islam, etc). The historical alignment of Russia and Iran with the Assad regime isn't the problem. What draws in the foreign fighters and what pushes relative moderates (essentially non- or semi-Islamists) in Syria to join the most extreme religious groups is the continuous barbarity of the Assad regime. Needless to say, without the support of Iran, and to a lesser degree, Russia, the Assad regime would have likely folded long ago, and the domination of the opposition groups by Sunni radicals would have been far less likely to have occurred. That's not to let Qater, Turkey, and SA off the hook. Those three countries (especially Qatar and Turkey) are definitely guilty of supporting Islamists, but the size of the opportunity for them to do so was largely contingent on the draw of the fight with Assad's regime. >What else was it ? Killing a important shiite cleric is nothing but fueling the secterian conflict and the reaction was the descruction of the SA embassy in Teheran. I think that Kenneth Pollack's article (cited above) is worth the read to fully understand why SA executed Nimr, but here is another excerpt to answer your question: "So, the Saudis are scared of the rising tide of popular mobilization and Shiite mobilization; they are scared by their loss of control over the oil market and what that is forcing them to do domestically; they are scared by the spillover from the region’s civil wars and the costs that they are being forced to bear to try to prevent that spillover from affecting them; and they are scared that we are abandoning them for Iran. The Saudis’ world, in other words, is pretty scary. And their modus operandi today is the same as it always has been: to lash out to try to beat back the threats that they see and regain control of their circumstances. Hence their stunning intervention in Yemen, their constant escalation in Syria, and now this latest flare-up with Iran." I'd actually argue that the destruction of the SA embassy was a tremendous provocation by Iran. The destruction of diplomatic embassies is a huge no-no, and just goes to show how callously the Iranian regime treats its commitments under international law and reasonable morality. The destruction was certainly sanctioned by high levels of the Iranian government, and the police did nothing to quell the violence until it was already too late. >If you really think that, then you don't know much about Iran or its history. Apart from the fact that Iran is one of the oldest cultures in the world, the population and especially woman are highly educated. In SA until recently woman couldn't even drive or vote or go out without a male accompanying them. 2009 millions of young iranians went to the streets to protest against voter fraud and before the revolution, Iran was a quite free and progressive. So even tough the regimes might be both religious fanatics, Iran is still light years ahead of SA in terms of civil society and culture. I don't think I ever made the argument that Saudi Arabia's populace was more modern or liberal than Iran's. It's the Iranian regime that I'm critiquing (though, admittedly, the Iranian regime does draw significant support from its populace). Assuredly, the Iranian people and their culture are more admirable that Saudi's, but they're not the policy-makers.