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> Members of this global elite had an average wealth of $2.7 million per adult in 2014. I know plenty of people in their 60s who simply busted their asses at m

> Members of this global elite had an average wealth of $2.7 million per adult in 2014. I know plenty of people in their 60s who simply busted their asses at middle-class jobs while saving their pennies who are members of this "global elite."

mahyarm 11y ago
And all of the poor of the USA is relatively wealthy to the population of the rest of the world too. Still as far as 60 year olds go, that is actually pretty good. There are many 60 year olds who did not pinch pennies or did and had some medical disaster wipe their savings.
- brandonmenc 11y ago
  > And all of the poor of the USA is relatively wealthy to the population of the rest of the world too. Yes, something I like pointing out to my friends who never worked in a factory complaining that there are no more good factory jobs. Global poverty is declining in part because that work left America.
onion2k 11y ago
I don't think you do. The median income in the USA is $52,000. Assuming that a middle-class job pays 3* that amount, and that someone can reasonably save 30% of their salary for the last 20 years they work, that amounts to about $1m saved. Probably a lot less because a person's salary isn't at it's peak for much of their career. Even factoring for a household with 2 incomes at that level you don't get to $2.7m. I imagine the people you know are members of the elite as you say, but they got there by by having elite jobs and by investing their elite incomes. If you think they're in the "middle-class" you have a somewhat distorted view of the world.
- hkmurakami 11y ago
  I think GP does know some people like this, because the boomer generation experienced tremendous asset appreciation across all sectors (public equities and real estate in particular) during their earning years.
  - anon1385 11y ago
    Sure, but being in the right time and place to benefit from a massive housing boom/bubble isn't "busting their asses".
    - brandonmenc 11y ago
      > isn't "busting their asses" It is if that invested money came from say, pouring metal in a foundry 60 hours a week for 40 years.
      - onion2k 11y ago
        If two people do the same amount of hard work, but one ends up a millionaire because they bought a house in the right area 40 years previously, then being a millionaire has nothing to do with their hard work. They are not rich because they "busted their ass" for 60 hours a week. They're rich because they were lucky to live in the right geographical area. Hard work is replicable. Whether that's hard work pouring metal in a foundry, or writing code, or analysing the stock market and investing well, those can all be hard work. Hard work is not buying a lottery ticket, or a house in an area that gets gentrified decades later. Nor is it giving your wealth to someone else to invest on your behalf.
        edanm 11y ago
        The "standard" middle class way to wealth is to work hard, save as much as you can, and put your savings into investments that will grow your money. While a lot of people go the "buy a house" route, and make most of their investment gains from the house appreciating, others will put their money into e.g. the stock market and make their returns there. Which part of this do you think "doesn't count" or has "nothing to do with hard work"? If we were talking about only people who worked hard, put X% of each salary into the stock market, and ended up wealthy because their investments paid off, would that count as "getting rich from hard work"? Is your objecting specifically with the fact that their chosen investment was in a house? Don't forget, buying a house is the same as putting money into a diversified stock portfolio in terms of work - they had to save X% of their salary to pay off a mortgage instead of putting it into the stock market, but effectually they worked the same amount and saved the same amount to end up at the same place. I don't think it's worth making a big point of difference over which exact vehicle they chose to put their investments in, as it obscures the point. Note: I recommend the stock market instead of buying a house because, like parent says, investing in a house is more of a lottery.
- refurb 11y ago
  Net worth, that includes your home. And don't forget returns on investment. Saving $30K/yr and getting a 5% return on your investment gets you very close to $2.5M after a 30 year career. Sure that's in the upper range of middle class, but it's by no means wealthy.
  - onion2k 11y ago
    it's by no means wealthy Are you honestly trying to suggest that someone with $2.5m to their name isn't wealthy? Wow.
    - brandonmenc 11y ago
      They're certainly not poor, but if they've saved that stash just to blow it all on end-of-life care, they're not really wealthy in the perceived 1% sense.
      - onion2k 11y ago
        Someone with $2.5m to spend on end of life care is a heck of a lot wealthier than someone with $250k to spend on end of life care. No matter what, if everything else is equal, someone with $2.5m is very wealthy. Arguments like "Ah, but they're not really wealthy because..." will always fail because there'll always be the case of someone in the same situation who doesn't have $2.5m, at which point the person with $2.5m is definitely wealthy.
        meric 11y ago
        Yeah, even $200k is very good, that's like 4 houses in India. Most people don't even own one.
        brandonmenc 11y ago
        I generally agree with you. The problem, in my opinion, is that there are too few gradations when talking about wealth. Yes, someone with a million dollars in assets - heck, even $10k in assets - is very wealthy, globally. I completely agree. But to lump them in with the actual ruling class and call them "elites" is naive.
- sowbug 11y ago
  A 7% return on savings will exceed $2m after 20 years.
  - soared 11y ago
    Absurd that he would try and argue about live savings and claim someone does not invest.
- brandonmenc 11y ago
  I think you're not understanding that the American middle class covers quite a wide range of wealth and income. You'd probably also be surprised at just how many millionaires who used to work in factories there are. 40 years of union wages, plus pension, plus investing in a mutual fund. I obviously can't prove it here, but I'm from a blue-collar factory city and trust me, some of those people have multi-million dollar retirement funds. Granted, you can't replicate that kind of success today, but there are people who didn't work "elite" jobs in possession of millions.
  - dnautics 11y ago
    Probably also because the prosperity of those blue collar workers came about by pumping the economy by borrowing from the future. Interest rates were 16%+ in the early 80s, you could have bought a middle class house and refi'd 2 times (at 8%,4%) and basically get two free houses. With interest rates zero or near zero, current middle class individuals will not be able to repeat this feat.
- soared 11y ago
  If they stashed in their mattress sure. But don't fucking argue about savings and claim they don't invest it at all.

mahyarm 11y ago

And all of the poor of the USA is relatively wealthy to the population of the rest of the world too. Still as far as 60 year olds go, that is actually pretty good. There are many 60 year olds who did not pinch pennies or did and had some medical disaster wipe their savings.

brandonmenc 11y ago
> And all of the poor of the USA is relatively wealthy to the population of the rest of the world too. Yes, something I like pointing out to my friends who never worked in a factory complaining that there are no more good factory jobs. Global poverty is declining in part because that work left America.

onion2k 11y ago

I don't think you do. The median income in the USA is $52,000. Assuming that a middle-class job pays 3* that amount, and that someone can reasonably save 30% of their salary for the last 20 years they work, that amounts to about $1m saved. Probably a lot less because a person's salary isn't at it's peak for much of their career. Even factoring for a household with 2 incomes at that level you don't get to $2.7m. I imagine the people you know are members of the elite as you say, but they got there by by having elite jobs and by investing their elite incomes. If you think they're in the "middle-class" you have a somewhat distorted view of the world.

hkmurakami 11y ago
I think GP does know some people like this, because the boomer generation experienced tremendous asset appreciation across all sectors (public equities and real estate in particular) during their earning years.
- anon1385 11y ago
  Sure, but being in the right time and place to benefit from a massive housing boom/bubble isn't "busting their asses".
  - brandonmenc 11y ago
    > isn't "busting their asses" It is if that invested money came from say, pouring metal in a foundry 60 hours a week for 40 years.
    - onion2k 11y ago
      If two people do the same amount of hard work, but one ends up a millionaire because they bought a house in the right area 40 years previously, then being a millionaire has nothing to do with their hard work. They are not rich because they "busted their ass" for 60 hours a week. They're rich because they were lucky to live in the right geographical area. Hard work is replicable. Whether that's hard work pouring metal in a foundry, or writing code, or analysing the stock market and investing well, those can all be hard work. Hard work is not buying a lottery ticket, or a house in an area that gets gentrified decades later. Nor is it giving your wealth to someone else to invest on your behalf.
      - edanm 11y ago
        The "standard" middle class way to wealth is to work hard, save as much as you can, and put your savings into investments that will grow your money. While a lot of people go the "buy a house" route, and make most of their investment gains from the house appreciating, others will put their money into e.g. the stock market and make their returns there. Which part of this do you think "doesn't count" or has "nothing to do with hard work"? If we were talking about only people who worked hard, put X% of each salary into the stock market, and ended up wealthy because their investments paid off, would that count as "getting rich from hard work"? Is your objecting specifically with the fact that their chosen investment was in a house? Don't forget, buying a house is the same as putting money into a diversified stock portfolio in terms of work - they had to save X% of their salary to pay off a mortgage instead of putting it into the stock market, but effectually they worked the same amount and saved the same amount to end up at the same place. I don't think it's worth making a big point of difference over which exact vehicle they chose to put their investments in, as it obscures the point. Note: I recommend the stock market instead of buying a house because, like parent says, investing in a house is more of a lottery.
refurb 11y ago
Net worth, that includes your home. And don't forget returns on investment. Saving $30K/yr and getting a 5% return on your investment gets you very close to $2.5M after a 30 year career. Sure that's in the upper range of middle class, but it's by no means wealthy.
- onion2k 11y ago
  it's by no means wealthy Are you honestly trying to suggest that someone with $2.5m to their name isn't wealthy? Wow.
  - brandonmenc 11y ago
    They're certainly not poor, but if they've saved that stash just to blow it all on end-of-life care, they're not really wealthy in the perceived 1% sense.
    - onion2k 11y ago
      Someone with $2.5m to spend on end of life care is a heck of a lot wealthier than someone with $250k to spend on end of life care. No matter what, if everything else is equal, someone with $2.5m is very wealthy. Arguments like "Ah, but they're not really wealthy because..." will always fail because there'll always be the case of someone in the same situation who doesn't have $2.5m, at which point the person with $2.5m is definitely wealthy.
      - meric 11y ago
        Yeah, even $200k is very good, that's like 4 houses in India. Most people don't even own one.
      - brandonmenc 11y ago
        I generally agree with you. The problem, in my opinion, is that there are too few gradations when talking about wealth. Yes, someone with a million dollars in assets - heck, even $10k in assets - is very wealthy, globally. I completely agree. But to lump them in with the actual ruling class and call them "elites" is naive.
sowbug 11y ago
A 7% return on savings will exceed $2m after 20 years.
- soared 11y ago
  Absurd that he would try and argue about live savings and claim someone does not invest.
brandonmenc 11y ago
I think you're not understanding that the American middle class covers quite a wide range of wealth and income. You'd probably also be surprised at just how many millionaires who used to work in factories there are. 40 years of union wages, plus pension, plus investing in a mutual fund. I obviously can't prove it here, but I'm from a blue-collar factory city and trust me, some of those people have multi-million dollar retirement funds. Granted, you can't replicate that kind of success today, but there are people who didn't work "elite" jobs in possession of millions.
- dnautics 11y ago
  Probably also because the prosperity of those blue collar workers came about by pumping the economy by borrowing from the future. Interest rates were 16%+ in the early 80s, you could have bought a middle class house and refi'd 2 times (at 8%,4%) and basically get two free houses. With interest rates zero or near zero, current middle class individuals will not be able to repeat this feat.
soared 11y ago
If they stashed in their mattress sure. But don't fucking argue about savings and claim they don't invest it at all.