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Curious to hear more about the difference between the boy computer nerds and the boy math nerds, especially the differences in the computer or math based hangin

Curious to hear more about the difference between the boy computer nerds and the boy math nerds, especially the differences in the computer or math based hanging out activities (i.e. extra curricular subject matter activities) Also, re: "a roomful of junior high boys who scorned me proactively because they figured since I was a girl I probably hated them and computers."... Did they say things along those lines or was this an assumption you made at the time? You clearly didn't hate computers, so I don't know how they would figure that unless you never demonstrated your interest in computers to them. If they were actively discriminating against you because you were a girl, I'd expect you to have said something like: "a roomful of junior high boys who scorned me proactively because I was a girl despite the fact that they knew I loved computers."

nickpsecurity 11y ago
"If they were actively discriminating against you because you were a girl, I'd expect you to have said something like: "a roomful of junior high boys who scorned me proactively because I was a girl despite the fact that they knew I loved computers."" Why? This type of sexism or bias is well-known to the point that I'm surprised you asked her to explain it. Here it is: our culture molds men and women into different roles at an early age that shapes the average person's expectations of what's a "man's thing" or a "woman's thing." Although early technicians were women, men eventually took over the field and computers were another thing they played with while women did other things. Although I'd like the specifics, I could easily see a group of male, computer nerds assuming she was a waste of time because "women don't hack on computers." Just like how [male] mechanics would likely roll their eyes if a woman suggested the answer to a mechanical problem that wasn't obvious to them. Whereas anyone can do math.
- malandrew 11y ago
  "This type of sexism or bias is well-known to the point that I'm surprised you asked her to explain it." Completely agree that those bias' exist. What I contest is the assumption that you hold and that I've seen many others hold that this is the only factor or overwhelmingly primary factor and that it's somehow inappropriate to even consider look for other explanations, and the assumption that the magnitude off all other factors (if any) contribute inconsequentially to the problem we're trying to address here. I really don't see why my questions I asked to gain greater understanding of specific circumstances of anecdotal information should warrant surprise or should be seen as inappropriate. The scientific process involves inquiry, hypotheses and observations. You can't start at a conclusion and work your way backwards. Personally, I find the Occam's Razor, Hanlon's Razor and the null hypothesis to be remarkably useful tools when trying to gain a greater understanding of the World. The reason I ask for explanation is because I can also see that exact same group of male computer nerds assuming that most of their colleagues, male or female are a waste of time because "few people hack on computers". You can't expect people (especially children in the context of the educational "prison industrial complex") are going to magically overcome this assumption for one subgroup of the general population when they likely hold a belief that applies generally to the entire population. The reason I ask about the difference between the math and computer nerds is because there is a far greater chance that a child can identify a math nerd over a computer nerd because math is a required course at school every year. I was very much both a math nerd and computer nerd through elementary school to the end of middle school. I knew who the other math nerds were because we were the ones that were most active in math class and were known to have the highest grades on our math tests and we stayed after the bell to talk to the teacher about math. I didn't know who were the other computer nerds were throughout school except for the two semesters in elementary school that we got exposure to programming in Logo. In high school, I only knew about the computer nerds (all ~5 of us) because we all signed up for AP Comp Sci the first time it was offered at our school. Besides that course, there were 2-3 of us that would program TI calculators, but that was the extent of us hanging out. If there were other computer nerds in elementary school, middle school or high school, I didn't know about them because there wasn't a known venue to congregate and discover each other. Basically, any time someone's assertions are based on assumptions and not on facts, I think it's reasonable to be suspect of those assertions. There are three sides to every story. In this case, there is her side, the side of the male computer nerds and there are the facts. I want to know the facts. Assumptions are by and large useless. Related Reading from Meredith Patterson, "The Null Hypothesis Loves You and Wants You to Be Happy": https://medium.com/life-tips/the-null-hypothesis-loves-you-and-wants-you-to-be-happy-3189413d8cd0#.deiuaol2k https://medium.com/life-tips/the-null-hypothesis-loves-you-a...
  - kaitai 11y ago
    To answer a few of your points, 1) Math nerdery was indeed easily identifiable through classes. In addition, I went to schools with math teams, and was recruited in junior high/high school, because the team leaders wanted to win (and win we did). 2) Computer "talent" wasn't selected for. Using the computer lab in high school if you were not in the programming class was about being friends with a certain social group and being friends with the guy who ran the lab -- it was a social construct. I was quite shy at the time, painfully honest, and sensitive to rejection or dislike rather than oblivious to it. A brusque "Why do you need to use the lab?" would be enough to get me to say, "Well, I don't need to use the lab.....??...." (exit) 3) In the end, it was made clear that I belonged in math, while when it came to computers the guys were showing each other how to find the naked dancing girls in the computer games and glancing guiltily at each other when I saw. It didn't offend me, I want you to understand, but I just didn't really felt like I was part of the group, bonded by common interests. And I wasn't. I think the majority of these guys were there because their friends were in the computer lab, not because they loved hacking. In college I met guys who really did like making frankencomputers and we had fun together, as we really did have a common interest and were a bit more mature. I'll make one last point: I had a very traumatic (to a junior high girl) summer class in math. The 7 other boys knew each other and wouldn't talk to me and wouldn't eat lunch with me, even though I did demonstrate that I loved math (skipped to 2nd year of program) and was good with computers (configured email system for myself fixing teachers mistakes). Were they discriminating? Were they sexist? They were not nice, or welcoming, and I don't have a single good memory of a conversation with a single one of those boys, but I liked the teacher. But at the same time, your previous comment puts this emphasis on discrimination/sexism/etc. Those are bad habits that come out of unexamined behavior that result from social fallacies we carry around. In particular, seventh graders are just awkward, for so many reasons. I don't find it useful to think that those 7th grade boys were just male chauvinists. They were awkward 7th graders who were afraid to talk to a girl. That unremarkable fear had an unfortunate interaction with a class in which I was outnumbered and "other", in a field with historical baggage. As a mathematician, I know that rules and patterns make outcomes of a certain shape, and intent is largely irrelevant as we filter through time and society.
    - 11y ago

nickpsecurity 11y ago

"If they were actively discriminating against you because you were a girl, I'd expect you to have said something like: "a roomful of junior high boys who scorned me proactively because I was a girl despite the fact that they knew I loved computers."" Why? This type of sexism or bias is well-known to the point that I'm surprised you asked her to explain it. Here it is: our culture molds men and women into different roles at an early age that shapes the average person's expectations of what's a "man's thing" or a "woman's thing." Although early technicians were women, men eventually took over the field and computers were another thing they played with while women did other things. Although I'd like the specifics, I could easily see a group of male, computer nerds assuming she was a waste of time because "women don't hack on computers." Just like how [male] mechanics would likely roll their eyes if a woman suggested the answer to a mechanical problem that wasn't obvious to them. Whereas anyone can do math.

malandrew 11y ago
"This type of sexism or bias is well-known to the point that I'm surprised you asked her to explain it." Completely agree that those bias' exist. What I contest is the assumption that you hold and that I've seen many others hold that this is the only factor or overwhelmingly primary factor and that it's somehow inappropriate to even consider look for other explanations, and the assumption that the magnitude off all other factors (if any) contribute inconsequentially to the problem we're trying to address here. I really don't see why my questions I asked to gain greater understanding of specific circumstances of anecdotal information should warrant surprise or should be seen as inappropriate. The scientific process involves inquiry, hypotheses and observations. You can't start at a conclusion and work your way backwards. Personally, I find the Occam's Razor, Hanlon's Razor and the null hypothesis to be remarkably useful tools when trying to gain a greater understanding of the World. The reason I ask for explanation is because I can also see that exact same group of male computer nerds assuming that most of their colleagues, male or female are a waste of time because "few people hack on computers". You can't expect people (especially children in the context of the educational "prison industrial complex") are going to magically overcome this assumption for one subgroup of the general population when they likely hold a belief that applies generally to the entire population. The reason I ask about the difference between the math and computer nerds is because there is a far greater chance that a child can identify a math nerd over a computer nerd because math is a required course at school every year. I was very much both a math nerd and computer nerd through elementary school to the end of middle school. I knew who the other math nerds were because we were the ones that were most active in math class and were known to have the highest grades on our math tests and we stayed after the bell to talk to the teacher about math. I didn't know who were the other computer nerds were throughout school except for the two semesters in elementary school that we got exposure to programming in Logo. In high school, I only knew about the computer nerds (all ~5 of us) because we all signed up for AP Comp Sci the first time it was offered at our school. Besides that course, there were 2-3 of us that would program TI calculators, but that was the extent of us hanging out. If there were other computer nerds in elementary school, middle school or high school, I didn't know about them because there wasn't a known venue to congregate and discover each other. Basically, any time someone's assertions are based on assumptions and not on facts, I think it's reasonable to be suspect of those assertions. There are three sides to every story. In this case, there is her side, the side of the male computer nerds and there are the facts. I want to know the facts. Assumptions are by and large useless. Related Reading from Meredith Patterson, "The Null Hypothesis Loves You and Wants You to Be Happy": https://medium.com/life-tips/the-null-hypothesis-loves-you-and-wants-you-to-be-happy-3189413d8cd0#.deiuaol2k https://medium.com/life-tips/the-null-hypothesis-loves-you-a...
- kaitai 11y ago
  To answer a few of your points, 1) Math nerdery was indeed easily identifiable through classes. In addition, I went to schools with math teams, and was recruited in junior high/high school, because the team leaders wanted to win (and win we did). 2) Computer "talent" wasn't selected for. Using the computer lab in high school if you were not in the programming class was about being friends with a certain social group and being friends with the guy who ran the lab -- it was a social construct. I was quite shy at the time, painfully honest, and sensitive to rejection or dislike rather than oblivious to it. A brusque "Why do you need to use the lab?" would be enough to get me to say, "Well, I don't need to use the lab.....??...." (exit) 3) In the end, it was made clear that I belonged in math, while when it came to computers the guys were showing each other how to find the naked dancing girls in the computer games and glancing guiltily at each other when I saw. It didn't offend me, I want you to understand, but I just didn't really felt like I was part of the group, bonded by common interests. And I wasn't. I think the majority of these guys were there because their friends were in the computer lab, not because they loved hacking. In college I met guys who really did like making frankencomputers and we had fun together, as we really did have a common interest and were a bit more mature. I'll make one last point: I had a very traumatic (to a junior high girl) summer class in math. The 7 other boys knew each other and wouldn't talk to me and wouldn't eat lunch with me, even though I did demonstrate that I loved math (skipped to 2nd year of program) and was good with computers (configured email system for myself fixing teachers mistakes). Were they discriminating? Were they sexist? They were not nice, or welcoming, and I don't have a single good memory of a conversation with a single one of those boys, but I liked the teacher. But at the same time, your previous comment puts this emphasis on discrimination/sexism/etc. Those are bad habits that come out of unexamined behavior that result from social fallacies we carry around. In particular, seventh graders are just awkward, for so many reasons. I don't find it useful to think that those 7th grade boys were just male chauvinists. They were awkward 7th graders who were afraid to talk to a girl. That unremarkable fear had an unfortunate interaction with a class in which I was outnumbered and "other", in a field with historical baggage. As a mathematician, I know that rules and patterns make outcomes of a certain shape, and intent is largely irrelevant as we filter through time and society.
  - 11y ago