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I grew up in a pretty different milieu -- no IBM employees, no friends into computers. My dad knew one woman who worked at Cray and I visited her office once. V

by kaitai 11y ago

I grew up in a pretty different milieu -- no IBM employees, no friends into computers. My dad knew one woman who worked at Cray and I visited her office once. Very super cool. I never bought a computer until I was in grad school as I was able to dumpster dive them all until then, other than the first, which my mom bought. But I'll tell you this: being a girl, I never hung out with the boy computer nerds doing computer nerd stuff because they didn't seem to want to hang out with a girl. (I did hang out with the boy math nerds, so I don't think it's all boy/girl junior high awkwardness.) So I'm probably one of those people who didn't exist especially in the grandparent post, a non-existent girl computer nerd motivated by herself, because I too was too socially awkward to come in and somehow magically charm a roomful of junior high boys who scorned me proactively because they figured since I was a girl I probably hated them and computers. Thank god for college and moving away from hometown.

malandrew 11y ago
Curious to hear more about the difference between the boy computer nerds and the boy math nerds, especially the differences in the computer or math based hanging out activities (i.e. extra curricular subject matter activities) Also, re: "a roomful of junior high boys who scorned me proactively because they figured since I was a girl I probably hated them and computers."... Did they say things along those lines or was this an assumption you made at the time? You clearly didn't hate computers, so I don't know how they would figure that unless you never demonstrated your interest in computers to them. If they were actively discriminating against you because you were a girl, I'd expect you to have said something like: "a roomful of junior high boys who scorned me proactively because I was a girl despite the fact that they knew I loved computers."
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  "If they were actively discriminating against you because you were a girl, I'd expect you to have said something like: "a roomful of junior high boys who scorned me proactively because I was a girl despite the fact that they knew I loved computers."" Why? This type of sexism or bias is well-known to the point that I'm surprised you asked her to explain it. Here it is: our culture molds men and women into different roles at an early age that shapes the average person's expectations of what's a "man's thing" or a "woman's thing." Although early technicians were women, men eventually took over the field and computers were another thing they played with while women did other things. Although I'd like the specifics, I could easily see a group of male, computer nerds assuming she was a waste of time because "women don't hack on computers." Just like how [male] mechanics would likely roll their eyes if a woman suggested the answer to a mechanical problem that wasn't obvious to them. Whereas anyone can do math.
  - malandrew 11y ago
    "This type of sexism or bias is well-known to the point that I'm surprised you asked her to explain it." Completely agree that those bias' exist. What I contest is the assumption that you hold and that I've seen many others hold that this is the only factor or overwhelmingly primary factor and that it's somehow inappropriate to even consider look for other explanations, and the assumption that the magnitude off all other factors (if any) contribute inconsequentially to the problem we're trying to address here. I really don't see why my questions I asked to gain greater understanding of specific circumstances of anecdotal information should warrant surprise or should be seen as inappropriate. The scientific process involves inquiry, hypotheses and observations. You can't start at a conclusion and work your way backwards. Personally, I find the Occam's Razor, Hanlon's Razor and the null hypothesis to be remarkably useful tools when trying to gain a greater understanding of the World. The reason I ask for explanation is because I can also see that exact same group of male computer nerds assuming that most of their colleagues, male or female are a waste of time because "few people hack on computers". You can't expect people (especially children in the context of the educational "prison industrial complex") are going to magically overcome this assumption for one subgroup of the general population when they likely hold a belief that applies generally to the entire population. The reason I ask about the difference between the math and computer nerds is because there is a far greater chance that a child can identify a math nerd over a computer nerd because math is a required course at school every year. I was very much both a math nerd and computer nerd through elementary school to the end of middle school. I knew who the other math nerds were because we were the ones that were most active in math class and were known to have the highest grades on our math tests and we stayed after the bell to talk to the teacher about math. I didn't know who were the other computer nerds were throughout school except for the two semesters in elementary school that we got exposure to programming in Logo. In high school, I only knew about the computer nerds (all ~5 of us) because we all signed up for AP Comp Sci the first time it was offered at our school. Besides that course, there were 2-3 of us that would program TI calculators, but that was the extent of us hanging out. If there were other computer nerds in elementary school, middle school or high school, I didn't know about them because there wasn't a known venue to congregate and discover each other. Basically, any time someone's assertions are based on assumptions and not on facts, I think it's reasonable to be suspect of those assertions. There are three sides to every story. In this case, there is her side, the side of the male computer nerds and there are the facts. I want to know the facts. Assumptions are by and large useless. Related Reading from Meredith Patterson, "The Null Hypothesis Loves You and Wants You to Be Happy": https://medium.com/life-tips/the-null-hypothesis-loves-you-and-wants-you-to-be-happy-3189413d8cd0#.deiuaol2k https://medium.com/life-tips/the-null-hypothesis-loves-you-a...

by kaitai 11y ago

malandrew 11y ago

Curious to hear more about the difference between the boy computer nerds and the boy math nerds, especially the differences in the computer or math based hanging out activities (i.e. extra curricular subject matter activities) Also, re: "a roomful of junior high boys who scorned me proactively because they figured since I was a girl I probably hated them and computers."... Did they say things along those lines or was this an assumption you made at the time? You clearly didn't hate computers, so I don't know how they would figure that unless you never demonstrated your interest in computers to them. If they were actively discriminating against you because you were a girl, I'd expect you to have said something like: "a roomful of junior high boys who scorned me proactively because I was a girl despite the fact that they knew I loved computers."

nickpsecurity 11y ago
"If they were actively discriminating against you because you were a girl, I'd expect you to have said something like: "a roomful of junior high boys who scorned me proactively because I was a girl despite the fact that they knew I loved computers."" Why? This type of sexism or bias is well-known to the point that I'm surprised you asked her to explain it. Here it is: our culture molds men and women into different roles at an early age that shapes the average person's expectations of what's a "man's thing" or a "woman's thing." Although early technicians were women, men eventually took over the field and computers were another thing they played with while women did other things. Although I'd like the specifics, I could easily see a group of male, computer nerds assuming she was a waste of time because "women don't hack on computers." Just like how [male] mechanics would likely roll their eyes if a woman suggested the answer to a mechanical problem that wasn't obvious to them. Whereas anyone can do math.
- malandrew 11y ago
  "This type of sexism or bias is well-known to the point that I'm surprised you asked her to explain it." Completely agree that those bias' exist. What I contest is the assumption that you hold and that I've seen many others hold that this is the only factor or overwhelmingly primary factor and that it's somehow inappropriate to even consider look for other explanations, and the assumption that the magnitude off all other factors (if any) contribute inconsequentially to the problem we're trying to address here. I really don't see why my questions I asked to gain greater understanding of specific circumstances of anecdotal information should warrant surprise or should be seen as inappropriate. The scientific process involves inquiry, hypotheses and observations. You can't start at a conclusion and work your way backwards. Personally, I find the Occam's Razor, Hanlon's Razor and the null hypothesis to be remarkably useful tools when trying to gain a greater understanding of the World. The reason I ask for explanation is because I can also see that exact same group of male computer nerds assuming that most of their colleagues, male or female are a waste of time because "few people hack on computers". You can't expect people (especially children in the context of the educational "prison industrial complex") are going to magically overcome this assumption for one subgroup of the general population when they likely hold a belief that applies generally to the entire population. The reason I ask about the difference between the math and computer nerds is because there is a far greater chance that a child can identify a math nerd over a computer nerd because math is a required course at school every year. I was very much both a math nerd and computer nerd through elementary school to the end of middle school. I knew who the other math nerds were because we were the ones that were most active in math class and were known to have the highest grades on our math tests and we stayed after the bell to talk to the teacher about math. I didn't know who were the other computer nerds were throughout school except for the two semesters in elementary school that we got exposure to programming in Logo. In high school, I only knew about the computer nerds (all ~5 of us) because we all signed up for AP Comp Sci the first time it was offered at our school. Besides that course, there were 2-3 of us that would program TI calculators, but that was the extent of us hanging out. If there were other computer nerds in elementary school, middle school or high school, I didn't know about them because there wasn't a known venue to congregate and discover each other. Basically, any time someone's assertions are based on assumptions and not on facts, I think it's reasonable to be suspect of those assertions. There are three sides to every story. In this case, there is her side, the side of the male computer nerds and there are the facts. I want to know the facts. Assumptions are by and large useless. Related Reading from Meredith Patterson, "The Null Hypothesis Loves You and Wants You to Be Happy": https://medium.com/life-tips/the-null-hypothesis-loves-you-and-wants-you-to-be-happy-3189413d8cd0#.deiuaol2k https://medium.com/life-tips/the-null-hypothesis-loves-you-a...