3 ms·

Carol Dweck Revisits the 'Growth Mindset'

47 points by SpaceInvader 11y ago

dang 11y ago
This article points to http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2015/09/23/carol-dweck-revisits-the-growth-mindset.html http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2015/09/23/carol-dweck-rev..., but also includes an original interview, so we haven't changed the URL. We have taken the title of the other article, though, because it's more informative.
jernfrost 11y ago
Interesting read, but I got to say that getting it right isn't easy. I do struggle with my kids to find the right approach. Sometimes I can see my kids keep trying but with no effort because I just told them to not give up. There is a sort of defiance. Then you know it is a failure. I think effort usually works best when it comes with inspiration and want. People who do something a lot because they enjoy it will advance faster than people who do something a lot because they are just told to do it a lot. But what I think the growth mindset can help with is to make kids not so afraid of failing and not getting stuff or make them seek bigger challenges. My son was given 3 texts of different difficulty level at school. He didn't get why he should pick the longer more complicated one. We read through the simple one and I told him, "You made no mistakes reading this. That isn't really good. That means this is TOO EASY for you. You are not learning anything reading this. You are only learning when it is a bit difficult and you make mistakes. I think you should read the harder text. Don't worry about making mistakes. You are supposed to do that. That is what learning is about." That "speech" did seem to have some effect. It took down a sort of mental barrier where he felt secure and comfortable about texts he found easy to read. I also try to point out to him when other kids are good at something. I tell him, Peter is really good at that. He must have practiced a lot to get that good. Although I am very well aware of many skills being inherent, I don't want him to think that skills are completely intrinsic to people. Ultimately there is only so much you can do. You can make kids not afraid of trying, but you can't make them enjoy something they really aren't interested in.
- ido 11y ago
  I also try to point out to him when other kids are good at something. I tell him, Peter is really good at that. He must have practiced a lot to get that good. I think this can backfire (with them hearing "why are you not as good as Peter?"). Aside from trying to encourage productive mindsets, I think it's also important that they know that they have intrinsic value as people, regardless of what they accomplish.
  - germinalphrase 11y ago
    As someone who works with youth, everything can backfire depending on you kid, circumstance, tone, and so on. This is one of those sometimes inscrutable skills that parents/youth workers develop over time. I wish we had a better way to teach these soft 'people skills' as so many have no idea the effects they can/do have on those around them. Saying the right thing, at the right time, can have an amazing effect on a kid. OTOH, it's so frustrating and sad to see that some insidious/self-destructive idea has been beaten into a kid's head. Hard to break those things, particularly when they become self-reinforcing (e.g. dad calls me an idiot > I do poorly in class > I must be an idiot > I do even worse in class ...)
    - cJ0th 11y ago
      > As someone who works with youth, everything can backfire depending on you kid, circumstance, tone, and so on. Amen. Dweck's thesis is alright in that there are worst things you could teach a kid. But the overwhelming support that she receives for her work imho rather stems from what our capitalistic society currently wants to hear then a magnificent scientific breakthrough.
  - tokenadult 11y ago
    You can deal with this (or, at least, this is how I deal with this as a parent) by reminding children that there are only twenty-four hours in a day, and everyone sets aside some goals[1] while pursuing others, so that they have autonomy to decide what their most important goals. What I've learned as a parent after bringing up four children to at least teen age is that I fare better when I remind my children that they don't have to be like someone else, but they will tend to be happier if they work toward better at something tomorrow than their former selves were yesterday. They largely get to decide what to be best at, based on their interests. (Their interests are informed by economic reality of the job market to a much greater degree than mine were at the same age.) In other words, there is no particular reason to fear children thinking "I am not as good as Peter," if indeed they do not choose to be like Peter.
tokenadult 11y ago
Thanks for posting this follow-up on Dweck's research. I had earlier read the Education Week version of this report (but that is now behind a paywall for most readers), so I'm glad to see that Quartz is also publishing about Dweck's follow-up research. As a teacher, I find that the number-one thing that too many learners in school settings need to learn is that just because a learning task feels hard, that doesn't mean that they should stop trying to learn. That's especially important in mathematics.[1] "Problems worthy of attack, prove their worth by hitting back,"[2] so anyone who is still learning-problem-solving will have to show courage while feeling stupid many times along the way. Most school lessons (especially in mathematics, these days) are appallingly easy, and don't help learners learn how to deal with the frustration of being stuck while solving a problem. As a parent, I've learned how hard it can be to get this message through to children. It works best if you start VERY young. My oldest son, a hacker, told me during his last visit to see us at the home where he grew up that he just recently finished reading Dweck's original 2006 book Mindset: The New Psychology of Success.[3] He remarked that he could have saved himself a lot of learning by crashing and burning repeatedly if he had read it sooner. I smiled, because I remember recommending the book to him soon after it was published, but the fact that he tried again after the first few dozen times that he crashed and burned and never gave up showed that he picked up the key part of the book's message years ago. By contrast, growth mindset thinking is second nature to our daughter, eleven years younger than he is. She has heard about it literally for as long as she can remember. [1] https://www.facebook.com/MathCircles/posts/171401072987768 https://www.facebook.com/MathCircles/posts/171401072987768 [2] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Piet_Hein https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Piet_Hein [3] http://mindsetonline.com/ http://mindsetonline.com/
westoncb 11y ago
Summary of the follow-up: the heart of the 'Growth Mindset' is believing that one's intelligence is changeable; the other aspects of the theory are consequences of that central proposition. So, while the choice to praise effort (rather than immediate ability) is a natural consequence of believing that intelligence can improve, it's not enough to skip over the point about changeable intelligence, and only praise effort, for example. This makes a lot of sense: if people believe their intelligence is changeable, they'll understand the value of effort on their own. More than anything, praising effort is just another way of getting across the point that one's intelligence can be improved.
devinhelton 11y ago
Can someone explain to me what claim Professor Dweck has demonstrated that is both novel and true? I've heard a lot about growth mindset but I still don't know what claim she has proven that is not already pretty obvious.
- chrismanfrank 11y ago
  Fixed mindset is the belief that qualities like intelligence are fixed and can't change. Growth mindset is the belief that these qualities can be grown through effort. Dwecks research shows that a) kids with a growth mindset do better in school, especially in math, and b) kids can learn to have a growth mindset through relatively small interventions like reading and discussing a short article about the brain. I think point a) is obvious, but point b) was not until Dwecks research.
  - tbrownaw 11y ago
    (b) is not only not obvious, it also has some rather absurd implications due to the size of the effect and doesn't seem to replicate to the real world. Both of which imply it's bunk.
- tbrownaw 11y ago
  There's some good discussion of it in the series starting at http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/08/no-clarity-around-growth-mindset-yet/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/08/no-clarity-around-growt... .

47 points by SpaceInvader 11y ago

dang 11y ago

This article points to http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2015/09/23/carol-dweck-revisits-the-growth-mindset.html http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2015/09/23/carol-dweck-rev..., but also includes an original interview, so we haven't changed the URL. We have taken the title of the other article, though, because it's more informative.

jernfrost 11y ago

Interesting read, but I got to say that getting it right isn't easy. I do struggle with my kids to find the right approach. Sometimes I can see my kids keep trying but with no effort because I just told them to not give up. There is a sort of defiance. Then you know it is a failure. I think effort usually works best when it comes with inspiration and want. People who do something a lot because they enjoy it will advance faster than people who do something a lot because they are just told to do it a lot. But what I think the growth mindset can help with is to make kids not so afraid of failing and not getting stuff or make them seek bigger challenges. My son was given 3 texts of different difficulty level at school. He didn't get why he should pick the longer more complicated one. We read through the simple one and I told him, "You made no mistakes reading this. That isn't really good. That means this is TOO EASY for you. You are not learning anything reading this. You are only learning when it is a bit difficult and you make mistakes. I think you should read the harder text. Don't worry about making mistakes. You are supposed to do that. That is what learning is about." That "speech" did seem to have some effect. It took down a sort of mental barrier where he felt secure and comfortable about texts he found easy to read. I also try to point out to him when other kids are good at something. I tell him, Peter is really good at that. He must have practiced a lot to get that good. Although I am very well aware of many skills being inherent, I don't want him to think that skills are completely intrinsic to people. Ultimately there is only so much you can do. You can make kids not afraid of trying, but you can't make them enjoy something they really aren't interested in.

ido 11y ago
I also try to point out to him when other kids are good at something. I tell him, Peter is really good at that. He must have practiced a lot to get that good. I think this can backfire (with them hearing "why are you not as good as Peter?"). Aside from trying to encourage productive mindsets, I think it's also important that they know that they have intrinsic value as people, regardless of what they accomplish.
- germinalphrase 11y ago
  As someone who works with youth, everything can backfire depending on you kid, circumstance, tone, and so on. This is one of those sometimes inscrutable skills that parents/youth workers develop over time. I wish we had a better way to teach these soft 'people skills' as so many have no idea the effects they can/do have on those around them. Saying the right thing, at the right time, can have an amazing effect on a kid. OTOH, it's so frustrating and sad to see that some insidious/self-destructive idea has been beaten into a kid's head. Hard to break those things, particularly when they become self-reinforcing (e.g. dad calls me an idiot > I do poorly in class > I must be an idiot > I do even worse in class ...)
  - cJ0th 11y ago
    > As someone who works with youth, everything can backfire depending on you kid, circumstance, tone, and so on. Amen. Dweck's thesis is alright in that there are worst things you could teach a kid. But the overwhelming support that she receives for her work imho rather stems from what our capitalistic society currently wants to hear then a magnificent scientific breakthrough.
- tokenadult 11y ago
  You can deal with this (or, at least, this is how I deal with this as a parent) by reminding children that there are only twenty-four hours in a day, and everyone sets aside some goals[1] while pursuing others, so that they have autonomy to decide what their most important goals. What I've learned as a parent after bringing up four children to at least teen age is that I fare better when I remind my children that they don't have to be like someone else, but they will tend to be happier if they work toward better at something tomorrow than their former selves were yesterday. They largely get to decide what to be best at, based on their interests. (Their interests are informed by economic reality of the job market to a much greater degree than mine were at the same age.) In other words, there is no particular reason to fear children thinking "I am not as good as Peter," if indeed they do not choose to be like Peter.

tokenadult 11y ago

Thanks for posting this follow-up on Dweck's research. I had earlier read the Education Week version of this report (but that is now behind a paywall for most readers), so I'm glad to see that Quartz is also publishing about Dweck's follow-up research. As a teacher, I find that the number-one thing that too many learners in school settings need to learn is that just because a learning task feels hard, that doesn't mean that they should stop trying to learn. That's especially important in mathematics.[1] "Problems worthy of attack, prove their worth by hitting back,"[2] so anyone who is still learning-problem-solving will have to show courage while feeling stupid many times along the way. Most school lessons (especially in mathematics, these days) are appallingly easy, and don't help learners learn how to deal with the frustration of being stuck while solving a problem. As a parent, I've learned how hard it can be to get this message through to children. It works best if you start VERY young. My oldest son, a hacker, told me during his last visit to see us at the home where he grew up that he just recently finished reading Dweck's original 2006 book Mindset: The New Psychology of Success.[3] He remarked that he could have saved himself a lot of learning by crashing and burning repeatedly if he had read it sooner. I smiled, because I remember recommending the book to him soon after it was published, but the fact that he tried again after the first few dozen times that he crashed and burned and never gave up showed that he picked up the key part of the book's message years ago. By contrast, growth mindset thinking is second nature to our daughter, eleven years younger than he is. She has heard about it literally for as long as she can remember. [1] https://www.facebook.com/MathCircles/posts/171401072987768 https://www.facebook.com/MathCircles/posts/171401072987768 [2] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Piet_Hein https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Piet_Hein [3] http://mindsetonline.com/ http://mindsetonline.com/

westoncb 11y ago

Summary of the follow-up: the heart of the 'Growth Mindset' is believing that one's intelligence is changeable; the other aspects of the theory are consequences of that central proposition. So, while the choice to praise effort (rather than immediate ability) is a natural consequence of believing that intelligence can improve, it's not enough to skip over the point about changeable intelligence, and only praise effort, for example. This makes a lot of sense: if people believe their intelligence is changeable, they'll understand the value of effort on their own. More than anything, praising effort is just another way of getting across the point that one's intelligence can be improved.

devinhelton 11y ago

Can someone explain to me what claim Professor Dweck has demonstrated that is both novel and true? I've heard a lot about growth mindset but I still don't know what claim she has proven that is not already pretty obvious.

chrismanfrank 11y ago
Fixed mindset is the belief that qualities like intelligence are fixed and can't change. Growth mindset is the belief that these qualities can be grown through effort. Dwecks research shows that a) kids with a growth mindset do better in school, especially in math, and b) kids can learn to have a growth mindset through relatively small interventions like reading and discussing a short article about the brain. I think point a) is obvious, but point b) was not until Dwecks research.
- tbrownaw 11y ago
  (b) is not only not obvious, it also has some rather absurd implications due to the size of the effect and doesn't seem to replicate to the real world. Both of which imply it's bunk.
tbrownaw 11y ago
There's some good discussion of it in the series starting at http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/08/no-clarity-around-growth-mindset-yet/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/08/no-clarity-around-growt... .