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The Saudis are no angels. They proselytize their form of radical Islam around the world. Internally, they are a repressive oligarchy ruled by the royal family

The Saudis are no angels. They proselytize their form of radical Islam around the world. Internally, they are a repressive oligarchy ruled by the royal family and the radical clerics. Private donors from Saudi Arabia contribute a huge amount to terrorism. These are huge problems and the Saudis shouldn't get a pass on it, but it's not comparable to the Iranian government sponsoring civil wars across the Middle East to build itself an empire.

mschuster91 11y ago
> but it's not comparable to the Iranian government sponsoring civil wars across the Middle East to build itself an empire. I believe there's no worse party in the entire ME region than Turkey. They might be a NATO ally, but for years they have e.g. allowed free influx of foreign fighters and arms into the region and export of oil back into Turkey, thus directly fueling the rise of IS. (Granted, Saudi Arabia with sponsoring Wahhabite islam propaganda all over Europe also had its part) Also, Erdogan is rapidly transforming Turkey to an Islamist dictatorship... and he's using the Syrian refugees as a weapon against Europe. Europe pays 3B € and Europe looks away from him turning into a dictator and massacring Kurds as long as he keeps the refugees in Turkey. If Erdogan were to truly unleash the millions of refugees, Europe would be screwed. Europe couldn't manage the 2m refugees last year without nearly falling apart, another 2m (or more!) would break up the EU.
- Cyph0n 11y ago
  That would be fun to watch. What goes around comes around, EU.
- marcoperaza 11y ago
  What's happening in Turkey really breaks my heart. It reminds me of Fareed Zakaria's book The Future of Freedom, about the phenomenon of illiberal and failed democracies. His thesis is that democratization can't succeed without liberalization first, brought about by economic and social development. And that democracy, anyhow, is a lesser good than constitutional liberalism. That the ballot box is less important than the impartial judge and guarantee of liberties. This is difficult for us who believe in both freedom and democracy to swallow. Where would Turkey be today without Ataturk? And what if his dictatorship survived to the current day, would that be better than the populist, democratically-elected, Erdogan?

mschuster91 11y ago

> but it's not comparable to the Iranian government sponsoring civil wars across the Middle East to build itself an empire. I believe there's no worse party in the entire ME region than Turkey. They might be a NATO ally, but for years they have e.g. allowed free influx of foreign fighters and arms into the region and export of oil back into Turkey, thus directly fueling the rise of IS. (Granted, Saudi Arabia with sponsoring Wahhabite islam propaganda all over Europe also had its part) Also, Erdogan is rapidly transforming Turkey to an Islamist dictatorship... and he's using the Syrian refugees as a weapon against Europe. Europe pays 3B € and Europe looks away from him turning into a dictator and massacring Kurds as long as he keeps the refugees in Turkey. If Erdogan were to truly unleash the millions of refugees, Europe would be screwed. Europe couldn't manage the 2m refugees last year without nearly falling apart, another 2m (or more!) would break up the EU.

Cyph0n 11y ago
That would be fun to watch. What goes around comes around, EU.
marcoperaza 11y ago
What's happening in Turkey really breaks my heart. It reminds me of Fareed Zakaria's book The Future of Freedom, about the phenomenon of illiberal and failed democracies. His thesis is that democratization can't succeed without liberalization first, brought about by economic and social development. And that democracy, anyhow, is a lesser good than constitutional liberalism. That the ballot box is less important than the impartial judge and guarantee of liberties. This is difficult for us who believe in both freedom and democracy to swallow. Where would Turkey be today without Ataturk? And what if his dictatorship survived to the current day, would that be better than the populist, democratically-elected, Erdogan?