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I'm sure he's well aware of the critizism. I think this is mostly about the random hate one gets for doing original thought.

by tremguy 11y ago

jacobolus 11y ago
Graham’s essay that got dumped on was hardly an “original thought”. The whole “we rich people deserve to have 100x more than the poors because we’re pushing humanity forward” schtick is as old as civilization, and Graham’s version was a particularly lazy and poorly argued one.
- invalidOrTaken 11y ago
  That is a hostile interpretation of the essay.
  - giaour 11y ago
    PG claimed that some rich people "create wealth" and are thus entitled to it. He further argued that they're extra entitled to it because even if you eliminated all other sources of inequality, you couldn't stop them from creating more wealth for themselves: "creating wealth, as a source of economic inequality, is different from taking it—not just morally, but also practically, in the sense that it is harder to eradicate." This is not a hostile but a literal interpretation of the essay and is the same viewpoint advanced by Atlas Shrugged.
    - invalidOrTaken 11y ago
      > PG claimed that some rich people "create wealth" and are thus entitled to it. Close enough. But, like, is anyone really going to argue with this? With scare quotes, sure, OK, I guess there's an example of someone out there churning out widgets from their blood-diamond-financed widget factory, and that's more of a grey area, but without weird factors like this...yes, people ought to be entitled to what they create. There are valid arguments on definitions of that (patents, land use, etc.) but all of those are disputes on how to apply the main principle, not whether it is legitimate. > He further argued that they're extra entitled to it because even if you eliminated all other sources of inequality, you couldn't stop them from creating more wealth for themselves: "creating wealth, as a source of economic inequality, is different from taking it This is a straw man. He didn't argue that they're "extra entitled," he simply pre-empted the (reasonable) argument that not all the rich got rich in good ways. But in any case: your description of his argument does not match the description I responded to: “we rich people deserve to have 100x more than the poors because we’re pushing humanity forward” Do you think the above is a hostile interpretation? I did, so I said so.
      - jacobolus 11y ago
        Unpacking the whole context and philosophical debate (e.g. between libertarians and Marxists) requires a book-length argument. (But to briefly answer your question, no. “People ought to be entitled to what they create” is not a universally accepted principle.) So folks responding to Graham are mostly not going to do the topic justice. (Side note: In a similar but less defensible way, Paul Graham’s summary of Joseph Stiglitz’s several books about inequality [to wit: “The most common mistake people make about economic inequality is to treat it as a single phenomenon. The most naive version of which is the one based on the pie fallacy: that the rich get rich by taking money from the poor.”] was such a ridiculous oversimplification that I suspect either (a) Graham didn’t actually read any of Stiglitz’s books, or (b) he has extremely poor reading comprehension, or (c) his argument is not only self-serving but also entirely disingenuous.) But anyway, you can’t just strip out all the context and pretend Paul Graham is having a purely abstract argument in a vacuum. The context today is that the level of inequality and centralization of political influence in America is at a level unseen since the 1920s, or perhaps since the gilded age. There’s a political discussion going on in the society at large about whether this development is healthy, and if not, what to do about it. Many people are angry, to the point that Paul Graham’s essay itself is full of paranoid fantasies about being “hunted”. Anyone making an argument in modern America is implicitly talking about what direction we should be going from where we are currently, and what social/political changes we can make to get there. Most readers are going to understand such arguments with that context in mind, and only bad/lazy writers will ignore it. * * * Graham grew up in a well off family, went to Ivy League college and grad school, worked for a few years as a programmer for his own well-timed web startup then cashed out for tens of millions while he was a relatively young man and transitioned into venture capital, where he has been very successful. As far as I can tell he has basically never worked in any jobs other than being a student, running his own startup, or venture capital. He apparently surrounds himself with other rich techies and has no regular exposure to people outside a tiny cultural bubble. From what I can remember, his only essays which talk at all about folks less fortunate than himself are about his school experience, in particular what I can remember is whining about how English teachers are idiots and how the jocks mistreated him. From such a position of privilege and ignorance, Graham hand-waves away all the concerns of the vast majority of people in America (not to mention the world), and spends his time justifying his own wealth and prestige and insisting that he shouldn’t have to contribute any of it back to society, with the bulk of the argument being “startups are good”, without further elaboration or analysis. As you might imagine, this seems awfully cheesy to folks reading along who don’t happen to be multimillionaires themselves.
  - dang 11y ago
    Indeed—so hostile that it can only be deliberate. It's an example of why we will probably add the Principle of Charity to the HN guidelines: http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html. The problem isn't merely the dishonesty of trying to make a person and/or their argument sound much worse than they are. It's the degrading effect it has on the rest of a discussion. Once bystanders see that it's ok to throw concern for the truth out the window and optimize for indignation, every standard drops. I don't know if it's true that sharks go crazy when they smell blood, but that's what this effect reminds me of. It seems to be getting worse, and the Principle of Charity might be a rampart against it.
    - palish 11y ago
      It's worth trying, but it probably won't work. The bitterness in this thread can't be countered with social pressure, and you can't ban people for appearing disingenuous. They believe what they're writing. These comments aren't coming from people in a mindset to observe their own actions from a distance, which is what the Principle of Charity requires. When a commenter is convinced that a topic is very important, and that it's a moral imperative to change the minds of whoever opposes them, "zealot" is one way to describe this situation. It seems to be the underlying force behind all this bitterness. Scrolling down in hopes of finding a reasonable comment is a recipe for disappointment. Worse, it adds fuel: Many of these comments are from people fed up with zealotry. Ideally, the mean-spirited comments would be whisked away to the bottom of the thread, where they belong. But they're not offtopic so they can't be detached. I've often wished for a way to view a thread without any nesting, i.e. like /newcomments but for one specific thread. That way I could at least come back later without having to scroll past the same tired meanness. It'd be a lot easier to spot the gems posted as replies.
      - dang 11y ago
        > it probably won't work You could as easily have said the same thing about HN at every point in its history, yet for all its weaknesses it has managed to survive as a semi-ok place for online discussion far longer than human nature, statistics, and every internet law would have predicted. That didn't just happen by accident. To stave off inevitable decline has been the main intent behind the design of the site and all the work on it. So, bad as things sometimes appear and critical as everyone sometimes sounds, it's worth remembering that HN has a track record of finding new things that work—for a while—at slowing decay.
- eruditely 11y ago
  Who are your family members that are poor? I hate it when a specific class of people tries to get us feel bad about inequality when we personally know through our extended families what poverty actually is and that inequality isn't whats propelling it, it's what's saving us. The just types of inequality of course bring us more.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- fsloth 11y ago
  I think PG highlighted pretty well the mechanisms which drove away wealth inequality in the last century. I think PG commented only on the upper end on the wealth distribution scale and was of the opinion it is not a problem. He did not comment it's ok for people to be poor. These issues are not completely linked. Economics are not a zero sum game. The wealth distribution curve can hypothetically have any shape. That it tails to ridiculous numbers in the larger end is not the problem. The problem is the price level in the society, and how the wealth distribution is spread in relation to this average level. I don't think he expressed any opinions on the shape of this distribution. And this has at least three things of concern, not one. The average price level , the shape of the wealth distribution and the total wealth in the society are all dynamic. Anyway I read his argument as "please ignore the tailing and focus on other things". This is at least my interpretation and if it's correct I agree. Jealousy never hurt any one. Extreme poverty, on the other hand, is quite detrimental to an individuals life.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]

I'm sure he's well aware of the critizism. I think this is mostly about the random hate one gets for doing original thought.

by tremguy 11y ago

I'm sure he's well aware of the critizism. I think this is mostly about the random hate one gets for doing original thought.

jacobolus 11y ago

Graham’s essay that got dumped on was hardly an “original thought”. The whole “we rich people deserve to have 100x more than the poors because we’re pushing humanity forward” schtick is as old as civilization, and Graham’s version was a particularly lazy and poorly argued one.

invalidOrTaken 11y ago
That is a hostile interpretation of the essay.
- giaour 11y ago
  PG claimed that some rich people "create wealth" and are thus entitled to it. He further argued that they're extra entitled to it because even if you eliminated all other sources of inequality, you couldn't stop them from creating more wealth for themselves: "creating wealth, as a source of economic inequality, is different from taking it—not just morally, but also practically, in the sense that it is harder to eradicate." This is not a hostile but a literal interpretation of the essay and is the same viewpoint advanced by Atlas Shrugged.
  - invalidOrTaken 11y ago
    > PG claimed that some rich people "create wealth" and are thus entitled to it. Close enough. But, like, is anyone really going to argue with this? With scare quotes, sure, OK, I guess there's an example of someone out there churning out widgets from their blood-diamond-financed widget factory, and that's more of a grey area, but without weird factors like this...yes, people ought to be entitled to what they create. There are valid arguments on definitions of that (patents, land use, etc.) but all of those are disputes on how to apply the main principle, not whether it is legitimate. > He further argued that they're extra entitled to it because even if you eliminated all other sources of inequality, you couldn't stop them from creating more wealth for themselves: "creating wealth, as a source of economic inequality, is different from taking it This is a straw man. He didn't argue that they're "extra entitled," he simply pre-empted the (reasonable) argument that not all the rich got rich in good ways. But in any case: your description of his argument does not match the description I responded to: “we rich people deserve to have 100x more than the poors because we’re pushing humanity forward” Do you think the above is a hostile interpretation? I did, so I said so.
    - jacobolus 11y ago
      Unpacking the whole context and philosophical debate (e.g. between libertarians and Marxists) requires a book-length argument. (But to briefly answer your question, no. “People ought to be entitled to what they create” is not a universally accepted principle.) So folks responding to Graham are mostly not going to do the topic justice. (Side note: In a similar but less defensible way, Paul Graham’s summary of Joseph Stiglitz’s several books about inequality [to wit: “The most common mistake people make about economic inequality is to treat it as a single phenomenon. The most naive version of which is the one based on the pie fallacy: that the rich get rich by taking money from the poor.”] was such a ridiculous oversimplification that I suspect either (a) Graham didn’t actually read any of Stiglitz’s books, or (b) he has extremely poor reading comprehension, or (c) his argument is not only self-serving but also entirely disingenuous.) But anyway, you can’t just strip out all the context and pretend Paul Graham is having a purely abstract argument in a vacuum. The context today is that the level of inequality and centralization of political influence in America is at a level unseen since the 1920s, or perhaps since the gilded age. There’s a political discussion going on in the society at large about whether this development is healthy, and if not, what to do about it. Many people are angry, to the point that Paul Graham’s essay itself is full of paranoid fantasies about being “hunted”. Anyone making an argument in modern America is implicitly talking about what direction we should be going from where we are currently, and what social/political changes we can make to get there. Most readers are going to understand such arguments with that context in mind, and only bad/lazy writers will ignore it. * * * Graham grew up in a well off family, went to Ivy League college and grad school, worked for a few years as a programmer for his own well-timed web startup then cashed out for tens of millions while he was a relatively young man and transitioned into venture capital, where he has been very successful. As far as I can tell he has basically never worked in any jobs other than being a student, running his own startup, or venture capital. He apparently surrounds himself with other rich techies and has no regular exposure to people outside a tiny cultural bubble. From what I can remember, his only essays which talk at all about folks less fortunate than himself are about his school experience, in particular what I can remember is whining about how English teachers are idiots and how the jocks mistreated him. From such a position of privilege and ignorance, Graham hand-waves away all the concerns of the vast majority of people in America (not to mention the world), and spends his time justifying his own wealth and prestige and insisting that he shouldn’t have to contribute any of it back to society, with the bulk of the argument being “startups are good”, without further elaboration or analysis. As you might imagine, this seems awfully cheesy to folks reading along who don’t happen to be multimillionaires themselves.
- dang 11y ago
  Indeed—so hostile that it can only be deliberate. It's an example of why we will probably add the Principle of Charity to the HN guidelines: http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html. The problem isn't merely the dishonesty of trying to make a person and/or their argument sound much worse than they are. It's the degrading effect it has on the rest of a discussion. Once bystanders see that it's ok to throw concern for the truth out the window and optimize for indignation, every standard drops. I don't know if it's true that sharks go crazy when they smell blood, but that's what this effect reminds me of. It seems to be getting worse, and the Principle of Charity might be a rampart against it.
  - palish 11y ago
    It's worth trying, but it probably won't work. The bitterness in this thread can't be countered with social pressure, and you can't ban people for appearing disingenuous. They believe what they're writing. These comments aren't coming from people in a mindset to observe their own actions from a distance, which is what the Principle of Charity requires. When a commenter is convinced that a topic is very important, and that it's a moral imperative to change the minds of whoever opposes them, "zealot" is one way to describe this situation. It seems to be the underlying force behind all this bitterness. Scrolling down in hopes of finding a reasonable comment is a recipe for disappointment. Worse, it adds fuel: Many of these comments are from people fed up with zealotry. Ideally, the mean-spirited comments would be whisked away to the bottom of the thread, where they belong. But they're not offtopic so they can't be detached. I've often wished for a way to view a thread without any nesting, i.e. like /newcomments but for one specific thread. That way I could at least come back later without having to scroll past the same tired meanness. It'd be a lot easier to spot the gems posted as replies.
    - dang 11y ago
      > it probably won't work You could as easily have said the same thing about HN at every point in its history, yet for all its weaknesses it has managed to survive as a semi-ok place for online discussion far longer than human nature, statistics, and every internet law would have predicted. That didn't just happen by accident. To stave off inevitable decline has been the main intent behind the design of the site and all the work on it. So, bad as things sometimes appear and critical as everyone sometimes sounds, it's worth remembering that HN has a track record of finding new things that work—for a while—at slowing decay.
eruditely 11y ago
Who are your family members that are poor? I hate it when a specific class of people tries to get us feel bad about inequality when we personally know through our extended families what poverty actually is and that inequality isn't whats propelling it, it's what's saving us. The just types of inequality of course bring us more.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
fsloth 11y ago
I think PG highlighted pretty well the mechanisms which drove away wealth inequality in the last century. I think PG commented only on the upper end on the wealth distribution scale and was of the opinion it is not a problem. He did not comment it's ok for people to be poor. These issues are not completely linked. Economics are not a zero sum game. The wealth distribution curve can hypothetically have any shape. That it tails to ridiculous numbers in the larger end is not the problem. The problem is the price level in the society, and how the wealth distribution is spread in relation to this average level. I don't think he expressed any opinions on the shape of this distribution. And this has at least three things of concern, not one. The average price level , the shape of the wealth distribution and the total wealth in the society are all dynamic. Anyway I read his argument as "please ignore the tailing and focus on other things". This is at least my interpretation and if it's correct I agree. Jealousy never hurt any one. Extreme poverty, on the other hand, is quite detrimental to an individuals life.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]