6 ms·

As a brit born a few years too late for this to be a sensible possibility at all I'm sick and tired of the social pressure from every angle telling me I'm not a

As a brit born a few years too late for this to be a sensible possibility at all I'm sick and tired of the social pressure from every angle telling me I'm not a real adult until I have a mortgage.

outside1234 11y ago
Your response to that should be: "you are not a responsible adult until you are debt free." That is actually one of the secrets to a lower stress longer lasting life IMO.
- grecy 11y ago
  Relevant: http://i.imgur.com/eIM5o.jpg http://i.imgur.com/eIM5o.jpg
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    The moral of that cartoon is that we should all become beggars I guess. It's a funny way to represent it, but there is one person missing from that cartoon. The person that refuses to go into debt, saves until they have the money to spend on whatever it is they want to buy. Another useful addition would be someone with a mortgage that they actually pay off on, their net worth would likely dwarf the net worth of the beggar.
    - s_kilk 11y ago
      > The person that refuses to go into debt, saves until they have the money to spend on whatever it is they want to buy. Bingo. Never been in debt and glad of it.
    - moonchrome 11y ago
      >It's a funny way to represent it, but there is one person missing from that cartoon. The person that refuses to go into debt, saves until they have the money to spend on whatever it is they want to buy. There's another person missing from that picture - a person who has debt and has positive net worth. Honestly debt is not a boogeyman, it can be very enabling and given the current economic situation, interest rates and economic outlook people saving are going to end up on the losing side in the long run.
      - oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
        It looks to me as if several people in that cartoon have debt but a positive net worth.
        moonchrome 11y ago
        Yeah true (and the point actually) I was responding to OP who was talking net worth and got confused I just bunched all those people in comic into negative net worth :D
    - justincormack 11y ago
      Yeah, in the UK average house price inflation has been above average total incomes a lot of the time, people simply cant save up to buy houses.
    - grecy 11y ago
      > The person that refuses to go into debt, saves until they have the money to spend on whatever it is they want to buy That's me! > Another useful addition would be someone with a mortgage that they actually pay off on, their net worth would likely dwarf the net worth of the beggar And they're so old their body has given up and they spend their days sitting in front of the TV, thinking about all the things they wish they did in their life.
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        > And they're so old their body has given up and they spend their days sitting in front of the TV, thinking about all the things they wish they did in their life. That is very much not necessarily true.
  - akavi 11y ago
    Really only works if you willfully ignore the notion of "non-cash assets".
- psaintla 11y ago
  You're not a responsible adult until you recognize debt is a tool. You can use the tool well or poorly but it is just a tool.
  - branchless 11y ago
    And when private banks provide near-unlimited debt the total cost of the average mortgage will consume all income after paying for food/heating/fuel. And if we get more productive disposable income will go up and that will feed into land prices. All the rentier need do is wait. edit: would love to hear the counter to this from whomever downvoted me - it's a fact that with our system productivity improvements flow into land prices therefore speculating on land sees you capture these gains.
    - psaintla 11y ago
      I didn't down vote you but here is the flaw. Rent typically trends upward with property values which eats away at a tenants ability to save. This is particularly true in markets like NYC, SF, LDN and HK where people are paying over 50% of their paycheck to rent.
- ape4 11y ago
  There is a stress in renting too. You never know if your landlord might want to change things resulting in a request for you to move out. eg he wants relatives to have the apartment, etc.
  - avn2109 11y ago
    This is less of an issue if your landlord is a giant faceless soulless holding company that operates many real estate businesses. Though such landlords have their own problems.
  - horv 11y ago
    This is something that is definitely overlooked in these discussions. I'm in the US, not living in SF or NYC but in a city growing fairly rapidly and closing on a house in a few weeks. I know that my mortgage won't increase (property taxes excluded), and I don't have to worry about a landlord deciding he wants to redevelop the property or just raising the rent enough that I'm forced to move - both of which are happening with regularity in my area. I don't think home ownership is a decision to be made lightly and I disagree with the idea presented in the article that it should be done to make money, but there are definitely numerous benefits and the idea of a mortgage being somehow evil just because it's debt is extreme. As another commenter mentioned, debt is a tool which can be used poorly or wisely.
  - Mikeb85 11y ago
    No landlord would want their family renting the place in lieu of real tenants. Real tenants pay, on time. Family likes to take advantage of you (ie. they find excuses to pay less or not at all).
    - dpark 11y ago
      Family is a convenient way to push out tenants in many cities, though. Even cities with strong tenant protections often have exceptions for evicting tenants in order to allow family members to occupy the rental.
- Nullabillity 11y ago
  Renting is just another form of debt, though.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    How so?
    - moron4hire 11y ago
      You have a future obligation to fulfill and are contractually bound to it for a set period of time.
      - icebraining 11y ago
        Well, at least around here, after the first six months, you never have an obligation beyond one month (you must give two months notice, but since you must usually pay two months in advance at the start, you don't pay the last).
    - rconti 11y ago
      It would be like renting clothes. Yes, you could stop renting them at any time, but... you don't really have an alternative.
  - spdustin 11y ago
    It's an expense, not a debt. It's like an operating expense, versus a mortgage, which is more like a capital expense amortized over a number of years. I have no issue with mortgages entered into by people who understand how to live within their means. There are lenders who prey on those who don't truly understand what their means are, sure, but that doesn't make the whole enterprise of home ownership a faulty one. And before anyone nitpicks: yes, you do own the house you buy with a mortgage. It's security for the loan, and the mortgage gives the banks the right to take the property away from you to settle your debt. On well negotiated loans used to purchase property smartly, it can actually be an investment. One that may not pay as much as an index fun after 30 years, but in the meantime, you've had a place to live. I would also suggest that many (not most, just many) people without a mortgage are unmarried and/or not parents. There is an intangible benefit to "setting down roots" and "making a home of memories" with a family. I, personally, have found that to be invaluable.
- dfraser992 11y ago
  I recently bought a flat - my only real debt is the mortgage. There is a psychological shift - I was in London for 7 years and thought I'd rent forever. But it bugged me to be pissing away 1300 a month to a landlord... and it was never big enough. And London is its own headache. The shift for me at least has to do with 'settling down'. I bought this current flat (outside of London) primarily as an investment (gentrification is already happening here) and so the much lower "rent"/mortgage (than even renting in this city) is an upside. I wish I'd bought in King's Cross 10 years ago, but that's how life goes. But I do get the social pressure to "own". Under 30s these days are screwed. I always thought London was overpriced, but it kept going up and up and up... At some point, the bubble will burst, but the Tories don't care about the future for anyone but themselves at all. As an aside, my friend just finished off his <$100 quid a month mortgage he got in the 80s and his two up-two down is easily worth 200K now. I think he paid like 50K overall?
  - banku_brougham 11y ago
    A Seattleite here, I know someone who bought a townhouse near Dollis Hills station on Jubilee line. £750K. Seemed like an eye-watering amount for a crummy looking neighborhood. What am I missing?
- bphogan 11y ago
  Responsible adults manage debt. In my opinion it's a sign of immaturity to exclude funding sources available to you to accomplish goals. If the goal is starting a business, borrowing money to do so helps you get to market. If you have employees working for you and you cannot make payroll because profits were poor as you start, borrowing money to make payroll keeps you afloat. On a personal level, buying a house might be more than you care to take on. But with a mortgage, you can certainly predict what your payments will be for the next 10, 15, or 30 years. And it can be renegotiated when interest rates drop. Understanding this is what makes people responsible adults. What makes them irresponsible is buying things on a whim on credit and carrying large credit card balances. That is indeed a great way to ensure a stressful life.
  - kmonsen 11y ago
    The tax rules also favors mortgage debt substantially.

As a brit born a few years too late for this to be a sensible possibility at all I'm sick and tired of the social pressure from every angle telling me I'm not a real adult until I have a mortgage.

outside1234 11y ago

Your response to that should be: "you are not a responsible adult until you are debt free." That is actually one of the secrets to a lower stress longer lasting life IMO.

grecy 11y ago
Relevant: http://i.imgur.com/eIM5o.jpg http://i.imgur.com/eIM5o.jpg
- jacquesm 11y ago
  The moral of that cartoon is that we should all become beggars I guess. It's a funny way to represent it, but there is one person missing from that cartoon. The person that refuses to go into debt, saves until they have the money to spend on whatever it is they want to buy. Another useful addition would be someone with a mortgage that they actually pay off on, their net worth would likely dwarf the net worth of the beggar.
  - s_kilk 11y ago
    > The person that refuses to go into debt, saves until they have the money to spend on whatever it is they want to buy. Bingo. Never been in debt and glad of it.
  - moonchrome 11y ago
    >It's a funny way to represent it, but there is one person missing from that cartoon. The person that refuses to go into debt, saves until they have the money to spend on whatever it is they want to buy. There's another person missing from that picture - a person who has debt and has positive net worth. Honestly debt is not a boogeyman, it can be very enabling and given the current economic situation, interest rates and economic outlook people saving are going to end up on the losing side in the long run.
    - oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
      It looks to me as if several people in that cartoon have debt but a positive net worth.
      - moonchrome 11y ago
        Yeah true (and the point actually) I was responding to OP who was talking net worth and got confused I just bunched all those people in comic into negative net worth :D
  - justincormack 11y ago
    Yeah, in the UK average house price inflation has been above average total incomes a lot of the time, people simply cant save up to buy houses.
  - grecy 11y ago
    > The person that refuses to go into debt, saves until they have the money to spend on whatever it is they want to buy That's me! > Another useful addition would be someone with a mortgage that they actually pay off on, their net worth would likely dwarf the net worth of the beggar And they're so old their body has given up and they spend their days sitting in front of the TV, thinking about all the things they wish they did in their life.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      > And they're so old their body has given up and they spend their days sitting in front of the TV, thinking about all the things they wish they did in their life. That is very much not necessarily true.
- akavi 11y ago
  Really only works if you willfully ignore the notion of "non-cash assets".
psaintla 11y ago
You're not a responsible adult until you recognize debt is a tool. You can use the tool well or poorly but it is just a tool.
- branchless 11y ago
  And when private banks provide near-unlimited debt the total cost of the average mortgage will consume all income after paying for food/heating/fuel. And if we get more productive disposable income will go up and that will feed into land prices. All the rentier need do is wait. edit: would love to hear the counter to this from whomever downvoted me - it's a fact that with our system productivity improvements flow into land prices therefore speculating on land sees you capture these gains.
  - psaintla 11y ago
    I didn't down vote you but here is the flaw. Rent typically trends upward with property values which eats away at a tenants ability to save. This is particularly true in markets like NYC, SF, LDN and HK where people are paying over 50% of their paycheck to rent.
ape4 11y ago
There is a stress in renting too. You never know if your landlord might want to change things resulting in a request for you to move out. eg he wants relatives to have the apartment, etc.
- avn2109 11y ago
  This is less of an issue if your landlord is a giant faceless soulless holding company that operates many real estate businesses. Though such landlords have their own problems.
- horv 11y ago
  This is something that is definitely overlooked in these discussions. I'm in the US, not living in SF or NYC but in a city growing fairly rapidly and closing on a house in a few weeks. I know that my mortgage won't increase (property taxes excluded), and I don't have to worry about a landlord deciding he wants to redevelop the property or just raising the rent enough that I'm forced to move - both of which are happening with regularity in my area. I don't think home ownership is a decision to be made lightly and I disagree with the idea presented in the article that it should be done to make money, but there are definitely numerous benefits and the idea of a mortgage being somehow evil just because it's debt is extreme. As another commenter mentioned, debt is a tool which can be used poorly or wisely.
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  No landlord would want their family renting the place in lieu of real tenants. Real tenants pay, on time. Family likes to take advantage of you (ie. they find excuses to pay less or not at all).
  - dpark 11y ago
    Family is a convenient way to push out tenants in many cities, though. Even cities with strong tenant protections often have exceptions for evicting tenants in order to allow family members to occupy the rental.
Nullabillity 11y ago
Renting is just another form of debt, though.
- icebraining 11y ago
  How so?
  - moron4hire 11y ago
    You have a future obligation to fulfill and are contractually bound to it for a set period of time.
    - icebraining 11y ago
      Well, at least around here, after the first six months, you never have an obligation beyond one month (you must give two months notice, but since you must usually pay two months in advance at the start, you don't pay the last).
  - rconti 11y ago
    It would be like renting clothes. Yes, you could stop renting them at any time, but... you don't really have an alternative.
- spdustin 11y ago
  It's an expense, not a debt. It's like an operating expense, versus a mortgage, which is more like a capital expense amortized over a number of years. I have no issue with mortgages entered into by people who understand how to live within their means. There are lenders who prey on those who don't truly understand what their means are, sure, but that doesn't make the whole enterprise of home ownership a faulty one. And before anyone nitpicks: yes, you do own the house you buy with a mortgage. It's security for the loan, and the mortgage gives the banks the right to take the property away from you to settle your debt. On well negotiated loans used to purchase property smartly, it can actually be an investment. One that may not pay as much as an index fun after 30 years, but in the meantime, you've had a place to live. I would also suggest that many (not most, just many) people without a mortgage are unmarried and/or not parents. There is an intangible benefit to "setting down roots" and "making a home of memories" with a family. I, personally, have found that to be invaluable.
dfraser992 11y ago
I recently bought a flat - my only real debt is the mortgage. There is a psychological shift - I was in London for 7 years and thought I'd rent forever. But it bugged me to be pissing away 1300 a month to a landlord... and it was never big enough. And London is its own headache. The shift for me at least has to do with 'settling down'. I bought this current flat (outside of London) primarily as an investment (gentrification is already happening here) and so the much lower "rent"/mortgage (than even renting in this city) is an upside. I wish I'd bought in King's Cross 10 years ago, but that's how life goes. But I do get the social pressure to "own". Under 30s these days are screwed. I always thought London was overpriced, but it kept going up and up and up... At some point, the bubble will burst, but the Tories don't care about the future for anyone but themselves at all. As an aside, my friend just finished off his <$100 quid a month mortgage he got in the 80s and his two up-two down is easily worth 200K now. I think he paid like 50K overall?
- banku_brougham 11y ago
  A Seattleite here, I know someone who bought a townhouse near Dollis Hills station on Jubilee line. £750K. Seemed like an eye-watering amount for a crummy looking neighborhood. What am I missing?
bphogan 11y ago
Responsible adults manage debt. In my opinion it's a sign of immaturity to exclude funding sources available to you to accomplish goals. If the goal is starting a business, borrowing money to do so helps you get to market. If you have employees working for you and you cannot make payroll because profits were poor as you start, borrowing money to make payroll keeps you afloat. On a personal level, buying a house might be more than you care to take on. But with a mortgage, you can certainly predict what your payments will be for the next 10, 15, or 30 years. And it can be renegotiated when interest rates drop. Understanding this is what makes people responsible adults. What makes them irresponsible is buying things on a whim on credit and carrying large credit card balances. That is indeed a great way to ensure a stressful life.
- kmonsen 11y ago
  The tax rules also favors mortgage debt substantially.