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I get the feeling this guy takes Star Wars (and probably himself) just a little worryingly seriously. I can't really understand what he's saying - that George

I get the feeling this guy takes Star Wars (and probably himself) just a little worryingly seriously. I can't really understand what he's saying - that George Lucas is evil? That the Star Wars films are promoting Lucas' evil agenda? That no one has actually noticed any of this and that's bad? The cynic in me wonders if perhaps David Brin has a new novel coming out soon...

leephillips 11y ago
"I get the feeling this guy takes Star Wars (and probably himself) just a little worryingly seriously." I was thinking the same thing, but he restores some perspective when he says, "Does entertainment have to have an outcome? We were doing it for fun." But it also seems that, for Brin, Democracy is an unassailable good, and pointing out its shortcomings might be a little bit evil.
- rquantz 11y ago
  Or perhaps he sees democracy as imperiled and in need of defending. In that view, efforts to undermine the public's confidence in democracy could be seen as evil.
  - danharaj 11y ago
    That point of view is very helpful to every violent hierarchy that hides behind the language of democracy and liberty.
    - rquantz 11y ago
      Only if by undermining democracy you mean undermining the word itself. Teaching people that the people cannot govern themselves, that democratic institutions cannot be trusted, and that leaders are born, rather than elected, are all helpful to authoritarians and harmful to actual democracy.
rquantz 11y ago
He says he takes mythology very seriously. Is that really a bad thing? Star Wars is a common dream that a huge percentage of humanity shares. It's the raw material of our imagination at this point. It's as legitimate to take seriously and criticize as the myths of the gods would have been to ancient Romans.
- johnchristopher 11y ago
  > It's as legitimate to take seriously and criticize as the myths of the gods would have been to ancient Romans. No, it isn't. Ancient Romans actually believed that stuff.
  - jhallenworld 11y ago
    There are recent new religions, why do the followers believe them? Who's to say that in 200 years people can't separate myth from reality of the Star Wars universe.
  - rquantz 11y ago
    Some did, but for a lot if them it was just culture and metaphor. That's why they were always remixing and rebelling the stories. Edit: just to be clear, I'm not talking about about belief in the existence of the gods, I'm talking about the myths of the gods, which were mixed and matched and changed and definitely were not subject to any kind of orthodoxy.
Bud 11y ago
Most of our planet is dominated by worship of mythological sky beings who supposedly existed several thousand years ago. I think a little fun and rumination over Star Wars is not too worrying, compared to that.
msabalau 11y ago
Ummm, the purpose of creative people is to take the world, look at it from different angles, and share that with people. That includes looking at fiction. Brin's playful provocation might not be your taste, but he's not the one taking something too seriously...
- bshimmin 11y ago
  Well, this is why I said I struggled to understand the piece. On the one hand he says "[t]he apotheosis of Darth Vader was truly disgusting", while on the other he says "Does entertainment have to have an outcome? We were doing it for fun". The two don't sit very comfortably together. I think it's important to study the cultural impact of significant works of art and fiction, and I'm sure Star Wars counts as significant (I'm less sure if it's had much cultural impact beyond encouraging 30+ years of children to play with lightsabers). But I have no real idea whether this guy actually believes Lucas - and Yoda! - are really evil or if he's just enjoying a bit of self-aggrandising publicity.
RodericDay 11y ago
If I wanted to understand a culture via their movies, I would not reach out exclusively for their serious dramas, historical pieces, and solemn biopics. I would certainly rope stuff like Star Wars in. The way I see it, there was a fascinating trend in action movies throughout my life, when the hero went from plain good 100% hero (say, a late 80s hero), to a grizzled guy that's ultimately got his heart in the right place (Wolverine types, Die Hard types), to fairly despicable people that "go out like men" doing epic stuff (Walter White), to completely messed up manipulative people that are triumphant and that's it (House of Cards dude). People find this kind of analysis very non-rigorous, but I often feel like the fact that these were successively popular with American audiences matches pretty well the changing self-image of America-the-nation. From pretense of full-righteousness to cynical "realism" and taking pride in "somebody has to do it" to "at least we're on top". So, I think extremely deep reads of fairly shallow but resonant fiction are often very worthwhile. edit: Of course, someone will point out that these are popular with different demographics and whatnot, that my cohort aged, etc.- I'm not going to turn this into a rigorous statistical analysis. It's just musings.
- chr15p 11y ago
  I was about to laugh at you for not realising that Netflix's House Of Cards is actually a remake of a BBC series from 1990, but on reflection that probably adds to your point. Many British films of the 1950's and 60's (also being non-rigorous!) are morally very black and white, lots of war movies, but also things like the early James Bond films have an absolute faith that Britain was a world power, maybe alongside the US and USSR, but still important, whereas by the late 1980's that self confidence had pretty much gone and instead you get the shades of grey and cynicism of things like House Of Cards. Of course Britain's loss of empire was much more definitive then any US decline, which is mostly a post-9/11 post-iraq war loss of confidence but there is an interesting parallel. Most programmes are a commentary on the time they are made, not the time they are set so I agree deep reads can be very revealing.
brudgers 11y ago
Destruction of an entire planet is depicted as pure evil. The deaths of everyone on a Death Star is something to celebrate every time it happens. Massive clone slaughter is a demonstration of the goodness of the force because JarJar Binks steps in Poop. The Jedi aren't hauling slave owners off to jail, the only concern is obtaining a child slave with special properties to serve in their army. It's the casual way in which these elements are bandied about as normal. Even what little nuance there was has gone down the memory hole: now Greedo draws and shoots first.

leephillips 11y ago

"I get the feeling this guy takes Star Wars (and probably himself) just a little worryingly seriously." I was thinking the same thing, but he restores some perspective when he says, "Does entertainment have to have an outcome? We were doing it for fun." But it also seems that, for Brin, Democracy is an unassailable good, and pointing out its shortcomings might be a little bit evil.

rquantz 11y ago
Or perhaps he sees democracy as imperiled and in need of defending. In that view, efforts to undermine the public's confidence in democracy could be seen as evil.
- danharaj 11y ago
  That point of view is very helpful to every violent hierarchy that hides behind the language of democracy and liberty.
  - rquantz 11y ago
    Only if by undermining democracy you mean undermining the word itself. Teaching people that the people cannot govern themselves, that democratic institutions cannot be trusted, and that leaders are born, rather than elected, are all helpful to authoritarians and harmful to actual democracy.

rquantz 11y ago

He says he takes mythology very seriously. Is that really a bad thing? Star Wars is a common dream that a huge percentage of humanity shares. It's the raw material of our imagination at this point. It's as legitimate to take seriously and criticize as the myths of the gods would have been to ancient Romans.

johnchristopher 11y ago
> It's as legitimate to take seriously and criticize as the myths of the gods would have been to ancient Romans. No, it isn't. Ancient Romans actually believed that stuff.
- jhallenworld 11y ago
  There are recent new religions, why do the followers believe them? Who's to say that in 200 years people can't separate myth from reality of the Star Wars universe.
- rquantz 11y ago
  Some did, but for a lot if them it was just culture and metaphor. That's why they were always remixing and rebelling the stories. Edit: just to be clear, I'm not talking about about belief in the existence of the gods, I'm talking about the myths of the gods, which were mixed and matched and changed and definitely were not subject to any kind of orthodoxy.

Bud 11y ago

Most of our planet is dominated by worship of mythological sky beings who supposedly existed several thousand years ago. I think a little fun and rumination over Star Wars is not too worrying, compared to that.

msabalau 11y ago

Ummm, the purpose of creative people is to take the world, look at it from different angles, and share that with people. That includes looking at fiction. Brin's playful provocation might not be your taste, but he's not the one taking something too seriously...

bshimmin 11y ago
Well, this is why I said I struggled to understand the piece. On the one hand he says "[t]he apotheosis of Darth Vader was truly disgusting", while on the other he says "Does entertainment have to have an outcome? We were doing it for fun". The two don't sit very comfortably together. I think it's important to study the cultural impact of significant works of art and fiction, and I'm sure Star Wars counts as significant (I'm less sure if it's had much cultural impact beyond encouraging 30+ years of children to play with lightsabers). But I have no real idea whether this guy actually believes Lucas - and Yoda! - are really evil or if he's just enjoying a bit of self-aggrandising publicity.

RodericDay 11y ago

If I wanted to understand a culture via their movies, I would not reach out exclusively for their serious dramas, historical pieces, and solemn biopics. I would certainly rope stuff like Star Wars in. The way I see it, there was a fascinating trend in action movies throughout my life, when the hero went from plain good 100% hero (say, a late 80s hero), to a grizzled guy that's ultimately got his heart in the right place (Wolverine types, Die Hard types), to fairly despicable people that "go out like men" doing epic stuff (Walter White), to completely messed up manipulative people that are triumphant and that's it (House of Cards dude). People find this kind of analysis very non-rigorous, but I often feel like the fact that these were successively popular with American audiences matches pretty well the changing self-image of America-the-nation. From pretense of full-righteousness to cynical "realism" and taking pride in "somebody has to do it" to "at least we're on top". So, I think extremely deep reads of fairly shallow but resonant fiction are often very worthwhile. edit: Of course, someone will point out that these are popular with different demographics and whatnot, that my cohort aged, etc.- I'm not going to turn this into a rigorous statistical analysis. It's just musings.

chr15p 11y ago
I was about to laugh at you for not realising that Netflix's House Of Cards is actually a remake of a BBC series from 1990, but on reflection that probably adds to your point. Many British films of the 1950's and 60's (also being non-rigorous!) are morally very black and white, lots of war movies, but also things like the early James Bond films have an absolute faith that Britain was a world power, maybe alongside the US and USSR, but still important, whereas by the late 1980's that self confidence had pretty much gone and instead you get the shades of grey and cynicism of things like House Of Cards. Of course Britain's loss of empire was much more definitive then any US decline, which is mostly a post-9/11 post-iraq war loss of confidence but there is an interesting parallel. Most programmes are a commentary on the time they are made, not the time they are set so I agree deep reads can be very revealing.

brudgers 11y ago

Destruction of an entire planet is depicted as pure evil. The deaths of everyone on a Death Star is something to celebrate every time it happens. Massive clone slaughter is a demonstration of the goodness of the force because JarJar Binks steps in Poop. The Jedi aren't hauling slave owners off to jail, the only concern is obtaining a child slave with special properties to serve in their army. It's the casual way in which these elements are bandied about as normal. Even what little nuance there was has gone down the memory hole: now Greedo draws and shoots first.