3 ms·

Winter is the excuse, not the cause. The situation in Oregon is larger than just this single incident. I recommend reading the report[1] put together by the SP

by pdkl95 11y ago

Winter is the excuse, not the cause. The situation in Oregon is larger than just this single incident. I recommend reading the report[1] put together by the SPLC on the previous incidents. Page 9 of the report has photos of these militia scofflaws pointing rifles at federal and local law enforcement[2]. That show of force did get law enforcement to back off at the time. As for why the people involved still haven't been charged with - at a minimum - assault with a deadly weapon is another matter entirely that really needs to be remedied before those militia nutjobs escalate their tactics into a a reenactment of the Whiskey Rebellion.. When you strip away the usual political rhetoric an other distractions, the primary reason the Oregon stand-off didn't turn into a (possibly Waco-style) raid immediately is because the militia members are both white and conservative. We saw what happened to unarmed non-conservatives when the police started using CS gas on various Occupy Wall Street groups (e.g. the battles in Oakland). If the militia members were black or Muslim, the media would be calling them "terrorists" and the swat teams would have gone in shooting within the first day or two. [1] https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/d6_legacy_files/downloads/publication/war_in_the_west_report.pdf https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/d6_legacy_file... [2] http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/mt/2014/04/RTR3L0EB/lead_large.jpg http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/mt/2014/04/RTR3L...

gozur88 11y ago
>When you strip away the usual political rhetoric an other distractions, the primary reason the Oregon stand-off didn't turn into a (possibly Waco-style) raid immediately is because the militia members are both white and conservative. I don't believe that for a second. The government certainly didn't hold back at Waco or Ruby Ridge.
- pdkl95 11y ago
  > Waco I should have included "mainstream xian" in that list. > didn't hold back I don't mean to imply that it's a perfect shield. There are numerous cases where the government has gone after more or less every subgroup. The point is that framing affects how people perceive a situation, which in turn affects how they respond. What framing? Just look at the media. An example from today: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-oregon-militia-standoff-20160116-story.html http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-oregon-mil... "The armed activists occupying a national wildlife refuge ..." ^^^^^^^^^ "... took over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge to protest ..." ^^^^^^^ Do you really the same framing would be used if the people involved were black? If liberals took over a similar federal building as with firearms, do you really think they would still be called "activists" by the media? If they were Muslim, do you really think they would be getting the same low-key treatment by the FBI?
  - gozur88 11y ago
    >Do you really the same framing would be used if the people involved were black? If liberals took over a similar federal building as with firearms, do you really think they would still be called "activists" by the media? Yes, I do. Are you seriously going to pretend the press is more sympathetic to Christians?
    - newjersey 11y ago
      Are you seriously going to pretend that we're not? Come on man. We can't win this one. I mean we have a presidential candidate on stage defending bringing in only Xians as refugees. I am as much intolerant of Muslims as anyone (PC be damned) but I don't think we have a leg to stand on here.
      - gozur88 11y ago
        >Are you seriously going to pretend that we're not? Remember Obama's remark about people "clinging to their guns and religion"? That's pretty insulting if you're a Christian (or a gun owner). He was still elected president. Twice. Sure, numerically speaking there are a lot of Christians in the US. But they're not a majority and they don't control any part of the press, academia, or the government. The people running the executive branch (including Obama) are downright hostile to both whites and Christians. Come springtime if those guys are still there ATF or the FBI will take the gloves off.
        newjersey 11y ago
        I wouldn't say these things. I'd like more blindness with regards to gender and race when it comes to government policies but I'm optimistic overall. I get that the candidates need to pander to minorities. That is OK. As the honorable mayor of new york will learn in a hard way, even a 90% approval rating among minorities is not enough to carry an election without support from whites. I hate this fear you've succumbed to because I'm afraid it will be a self-fulfilling prophesy. We are destroying ourselves. Fear hurts us because it makes us follow lunatics and insincere people like Ted Cruz and Jeb Bush. We need to take a step back and stop listening to fear mongerers. Of course, our work never ends. Of course, we need to push back to defend our rights. However, I don't see us pushing back. When we support antics like occupying a park office, we are not reaching out. We are withdrawing further. We are showing that we are afraid. Some dude not getting to graze his cattle in federal land is not a constitutional crisis much less a moral or religious one. I equate it to me going to the NSA and demanding them that I be given a free vps on their servers. I mean clearly my taxes paid for the data centers... I guess my point is if we stopped fearing and withdrawing into ourselves but rather tries to reach out then we will find a lot of the others will see what we really want isn't bad. However, we must discard the craziness and the insincerity. I think it will be a little easier to do that if we stop being afraid.

by pdkl95 11y ago

gozur88 11y ago

>When you strip away the usual political rhetoric an other distractions, the primary reason the Oregon stand-off didn't turn into a (possibly Waco-style) raid immediately is because the militia members are both white and conservative. I don't believe that for a second. The government certainly didn't hold back at Waco or Ruby Ridge.

pdkl95 11y ago
> Waco I should have included "mainstream xian" in that list. > didn't hold back I don't mean to imply that it's a perfect shield. There are numerous cases where the government has gone after more or less every subgroup. The point is that framing affects how people perceive a situation, which in turn affects how they respond. What framing? Just look at the media. An example from today: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-oregon-militia-standoff-20160116-story.html http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-oregon-mil... "The armed activists occupying a national wildlife refuge ..." ^^^^^^^^^ "... took over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge to protest ..." ^^^^^^^ Do you really the same framing would be used if the people involved were black? If liberals took over a similar federal building as with firearms, do you really think they would still be called "activists" by the media? If they were Muslim, do you really think they would be getting the same low-key treatment by the FBI?
- gozur88 11y ago
  >Do you really the same framing would be used if the people involved were black? If liberals took over a similar federal building as with firearms, do you really think they would still be called "activists" by the media? Yes, I do. Are you seriously going to pretend the press is more sympathetic to Christians?
  - newjersey 11y ago
    Are you seriously going to pretend that we're not? Come on man. We can't win this one. I mean we have a presidential candidate on stage defending bringing in only Xians as refugees. I am as much intolerant of Muslims as anyone (PC be damned) but I don't think we have a leg to stand on here.
    - gozur88 11y ago
      >Are you seriously going to pretend that we're not? Remember Obama's remark about people "clinging to their guns and religion"? That's pretty insulting if you're a Christian (or a gun owner). He was still elected president. Twice. Sure, numerically speaking there are a lot of Christians in the US. But they're not a majority and they don't control any part of the press, academia, or the government. The people running the executive branch (including Obama) are downright hostile to both whites and Christians. Come springtime if those guys are still there ATF or the FBI will take the gloves off.
      - newjersey 11y ago
        I wouldn't say these things. I'd like more blindness with regards to gender and race when it comes to government policies but I'm optimistic overall. I get that the candidates need to pander to minorities. That is OK. As the honorable mayor of new york will learn in a hard way, even a 90% approval rating among minorities is not enough to carry an election without support from whites. I hate this fear you've succumbed to because I'm afraid it will be a self-fulfilling prophesy. We are destroying ourselves. Fear hurts us because it makes us follow lunatics and insincere people like Ted Cruz and Jeb Bush. We need to take a step back and stop listening to fear mongerers. Of course, our work never ends. Of course, we need to push back to defend our rights. However, I don't see us pushing back. When we support antics like occupying a park office, we are not reaching out. We are withdrawing further. We are showing that we are afraid. Some dude not getting to graze his cattle in federal land is not a constitutional crisis much less a moral or religious one. I equate it to me going to the NSA and demanding them that I be given a free vps on their servers. I mean clearly my taxes paid for the data centers... I guess my point is if we stopped fearing and withdrawing into ourselves but rather tries to reach out then we will find a lot of the others will see what we really want isn't bad. However, we must discard the craziness and the insincerity. I think it will be a little easier to do that if we stop being afraid.