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>Edit: Of course, it could also be an inside job. An "exit scam." Has there ever been any real or serious evidence to demonstrate that any of these seemingly n

by datapat 11y ago

>Edit: Of course, it could also be an inside job. An "exit scam." Has there ever been any real or serious evidence to demonstrate that any of these seemingly numerous Bitcoin 'hacks' have been legit and not inside jobs, which is exactly what they all look like? There are so many 'exit hacks' it seems virtually standard practice in the Bitcoin world, perhaps because nobody seems to actually go to jail for it or even face any serious legal investigations into it. If a bank announced a multi-million dollar 'hack' I'd expect the authorities would be heavily involved, immediately, and everyone with a position to have facilitated a theft would be under suspicion and investigated until ruled out. One the one hand Bitcoin is a supposedly serious, game changing currency and has billions of dollars tied up in it; on the other, it's treated as little more than internet karma points, and if people have it stolen from a wallet or someone announces yet another million dollar 'hack' at some comical 'exchange' any old clown/scammer can throw up, it seems to be simply 'tough shit' and nothing to see here. This may be the non-regulated world the fanatics want, but it's a major reason why sane people (currently almost everyone on Earth) will continue to avoid Bitcoin like the plague.

FatalLogic 11y ago
Your mode of thought, trying to divide the world into 'fanatics' and 'sane people', is not a helpful way to analyze these issues. >Has there ever been any real or serious evidence to demonstrate that any of these seemingly numerous Bitcoin 'hacks' have been legit and not inside jobs, which is exactly what they all look like? You're asking people to prove a negative[1]. It's a common logical fallacy. >nobody seems to actually go to jail for it or even face any serious legal investigations into it. Really? This claim is trivially disprovable. Numerous people have been arrested, including Mark Karpeles of Mt Gox. You've never heard of that case? $500 million allegedly stolen https://www.google.com/search?q=bitcoin+exchange+arrested https://www.google.com/search?q=bitcoin+exchange+arrested http://www.wsj.com/articles/japanese-police-arrest-mark-karpeles-of-collapsed-bitcoin-exchange-mt-gox-1438393669 http://www.wsj.com/articles/japanese-police-arrest-mark-karp... http://siliconangle.com/blog/2015/02/23/mintpal-scammer-ryan-kennedy-arrested-in-u-k-over-theft-of-3700-bitcoins/ http://siliconangle.com/blog/2015/02/23/mintpal-scammer-ryan... [1]http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Negative_proof http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Negative_proof
- menzoic 11y ago
  Whats wrong with proving a negative? There is no fallacy in that first comment you quoted. datapat isn't claiming that what he's saying is true, he's asking for a proof.
  - eli 11y ago
    The nature of this sort of conspiracy theory makes it impossible to disprove. For example an identified backdoor and logs pointing to an external hack is exactly what you'd expect to see planted if this were a halfway clever inside job, right? So how do you possibly rule that out?
    - datapat 11y ago
      >The nature of this sort of conspiracy theory makes it impossible to disprove. >For example an identified backdoor and logs pointing to an external hack is exactly what you'd expect to see planted if this were a halfway clever inside job, right? So how do you possibly rule that out? If only there was an organization whose remit was to investigate and establish the facts behind fraud, robbery, hacking and other crimes.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      Well, at a minimum they should file a complaint with the authorities, hand over evidence that they did find, and so on. Too many times these 'hacks' have a weird smell and the companies for some reason do not want to get the authorities involved. Imagine how strange it would be if you had a breach at your home, a very large amount of value would be stolen and you'd not make any effort to alert the authorities and if the only thing that would prove that it was an outsider was your say-so. Of course, you could make it look like a burglary when it really was you but the various agencies would most likely be able to tell the difference, or in fact may be able to conclusively prove that you were the one doing it in the first place. Lots of real-life fraudsters get caught this way, I don't see why on-line fraudsters should get a free pass on having to at least meet the same level of proof before they are believed.
Buge 11y ago
The Bitcoinica hack definitely seems legit: http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/03/bitcoins-worth-228000-stolen-from-customers-of-hacked-webhost/ http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/03/bitcoins-worth-22800... They hacked Linode's customer service portal, and compromised 8 Linode customers. So I guess it could be an inside job of a Linode employee instead of one of the bitcoin exchange's employees.
forgetsusername 11y ago
>There are so many 'exit hacks' it seems virtually standard practice in the Bitcoin world, perhaps because nobody seems to actually go to jail for it or even face any serious legal investigations into it. And yet you have wealthy Silicon Valley Venture Capitalists actively promoting this crap, and no one is calling for heads.

by datapat 11y ago

FatalLogic 11y ago

Your mode of thought, trying to divide the world into 'fanatics' and 'sane people', is not a helpful way to analyze these issues. >Has there ever been any real or serious evidence to demonstrate that any of these seemingly numerous Bitcoin 'hacks' have been legit and not inside jobs, which is exactly what they all look like? You're asking people to prove a negative[1]. It's a common logical fallacy. >nobody seems to actually go to jail for it or even face any serious legal investigations into it. Really? This claim is trivially disprovable. Numerous people have been arrested, including Mark Karpeles of Mt Gox. You've never heard of that case? $500 million allegedly stolen https://www.google.com/search?q=bitcoin+exchange+arrested https://www.google.com/search?q=bitcoin+exchange+arrested http://www.wsj.com/articles/japanese-police-arrest-mark-karpeles-of-collapsed-bitcoin-exchange-mt-gox-1438393669 http://www.wsj.com/articles/japanese-police-arrest-mark-karp... http://siliconangle.com/blog/2015/02/23/mintpal-scammer-ryan-kennedy-arrested-in-u-k-over-theft-of-3700-bitcoins/ http://siliconangle.com/blog/2015/02/23/mintpal-scammer-ryan... [1]http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Negative_proof http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Negative_proof

menzoic 11y ago
Whats wrong with proving a negative? There is no fallacy in that first comment you quoted. datapat isn't claiming that what he's saying is true, he's asking for a proof.
- eli 11y ago
  The nature of this sort of conspiracy theory makes it impossible to disprove. For example an identified backdoor and logs pointing to an external hack is exactly what you'd expect to see planted if this were a halfway clever inside job, right? So how do you possibly rule that out?
  - datapat 11y ago
    >The nature of this sort of conspiracy theory makes it impossible to disprove. >For example an identified backdoor and logs pointing to an external hack is exactly what you'd expect to see planted if this were a halfway clever inside job, right? So how do you possibly rule that out? If only there was an organization whose remit was to investigate and establish the facts behind fraud, robbery, hacking and other crimes.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    Well, at a minimum they should file a complaint with the authorities, hand over evidence that they did find, and so on. Too many times these 'hacks' have a weird smell and the companies for some reason do not want to get the authorities involved. Imagine how strange it would be if you had a breach at your home, a very large amount of value would be stolen and you'd not make any effort to alert the authorities and if the only thing that would prove that it was an outsider was your say-so. Of course, you could make it look like a burglary when it really was you but the various agencies would most likely be able to tell the difference, or in fact may be able to conclusively prove that you were the one doing it in the first place. Lots of real-life fraudsters get caught this way, I don't see why on-line fraudsters should get a free pass on having to at least meet the same level of proof before they are believed.

Buge 11y ago

The Bitcoinica hack definitely seems legit: http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/03/bitcoins-worth-228000-stolen-from-customers-of-hacked-webhost/ http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/03/bitcoins-worth-22800... They hacked Linode's customer service portal, and compromised 8 Linode customers. So I guess it could be an inside job of a Linode employee instead of one of the bitcoin exchange's employees.

forgetsusername 11y ago

>There are so many 'exit hacks' it seems virtually standard practice in the Bitcoin world, perhaps because nobody seems to actually go to jail for it or even face any serious legal investigations into it. And yet you have wealthy Silicon Valley Venture Capitalists actively promoting this crap, and no one is calling for heads.