3 ms·

Being heavily armed (and also being white) alters how the police treat you, the Oregon stand-off demonstrates as much. There would likely also be a presumption

by d_t_w 11y ago

Being heavily armed (and also being white) alters how the police treat you, the Oregon stand-off demonstrates as much. There would likely also be a presumption, as a heavily armed white person, that you're extremely confident in your ability to recite the constitution, quite possibly spoiling for a fight to defend particular rights that you see enshrined in the constitution, that you will not submit to a warrantless search, and are even less likely to allow the police to steal your money. You don't need to put holes in the police officers, they would profile you from a mile off and assume you're a red-neck nutbag who is potentially going to put holes in them, move along citizen there's nothing to see here.

gozur88 11y ago
The Oregon stand-off just demonstrates that if you "occupy" buildings out in the middle of nowhere in the winter off-season the cops are going to ignore you and see if the cold convinces you to leave.
- pdkl95 11y ago
  Winter is the excuse, not the cause. The situation in Oregon is larger than just this single incident. I recommend reading the report[1] put together by the SPLC on the previous incidents. Page 9 of the report has photos of these militia scofflaws pointing rifles at federal and local law enforcement[2]. That show of force did get law enforcement to back off at the time. As for why the people involved still haven't been charged with - at a minimum - assault with a deadly weapon is another matter entirely that really needs to be remedied before those militia nutjobs escalate their tactics into a a reenactment of the Whiskey Rebellion.. When you strip away the usual political rhetoric an other distractions, the primary reason the Oregon stand-off didn't turn into a (possibly Waco-style) raid immediately is because the militia members are both white and conservative. We saw what happened to unarmed non-conservatives when the police started using CS gas on various Occupy Wall Street groups (e.g. the battles in Oakland). If the militia members were black or Muslim, the media would be calling them "terrorists" and the swat teams would have gone in shooting within the first day or two. [1] https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/d6_legacy_files/downloads/publication/war_in_the_west_report.pdf https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/d6_legacy_file... [2] http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/mt/2014/04/RTR3L0EB/lead_large.jpg http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/mt/2014/04/RTR3L...
  - gozur88 11y ago
    >When you strip away the usual political rhetoric an other distractions, the primary reason the Oregon stand-off didn't turn into a (possibly Waco-style) raid immediately is because the militia members are both white and conservative. I don't believe that for a second. The government certainly didn't hold back at Waco or Ruby Ridge.
    - pdkl95 11y ago
      > Waco I should have included "mainstream xian" in that list. > didn't hold back I don't mean to imply that it's a perfect shield. There are numerous cases where the government has gone after more or less every subgroup. The point is that framing affects how people perceive a situation, which in turn affects how they respond. What framing? Just look at the media. An example from today: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-oregon-militia-standoff-20160116-story.html http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-oregon-mil... "The armed activists occupying a national wildlife refuge ..." ^^^^^^^^^ "... took over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge to protest ..." ^^^^^^^ Do you really the same framing would be used if the people involved were black? If liberals took over a similar federal building as with firearms, do you really think they would still be called "activists" by the media? If they were Muslim, do you really think they would be getting the same low-key treatment by the FBI?
      - gozur88 11y ago
        >Do you really the same framing would be used if the people involved were black? If liberals took over a similar federal building as with firearms, do you really think they would still be called "activists" by the media? Yes, I do. Are you seriously going to pretend the press is more sympathetic to Christians?
        newjersey 11y ago
        Are you seriously going to pretend that we're not? Come on man. We can't win this one. I mean we have a presidential candidate on stage defending bringing in only Xians as refugees. I am as much intolerant of Muslims as anyone (PC be damned) but I don't think we have a leg to stand on here.

by d_t_w 11y ago

gozur88 11y ago

The Oregon stand-off just demonstrates that if you "occupy" buildings out in the middle of nowhere in the winter off-season the cops are going to ignore you and see if the cold convinces you to leave.

pdkl95 11y ago
Winter is the excuse, not the cause. The situation in Oregon is larger than just this single incident. I recommend reading the report[1] put together by the SPLC on the previous incidents. Page 9 of the report has photos of these militia scofflaws pointing rifles at federal and local law enforcement[2]. That show of force did get law enforcement to back off at the time. As for why the people involved still haven't been charged with - at a minimum - assault with a deadly weapon is another matter entirely that really needs to be remedied before those militia nutjobs escalate their tactics into a a reenactment of the Whiskey Rebellion.. When you strip away the usual political rhetoric an other distractions, the primary reason the Oregon stand-off didn't turn into a (possibly Waco-style) raid immediately is because the militia members are both white and conservative. We saw what happened to unarmed non-conservatives when the police started using CS gas on various Occupy Wall Street groups (e.g. the battles in Oakland). If the militia members were black or Muslim, the media would be calling them "terrorists" and the swat teams would have gone in shooting within the first day or two. [1] https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/d6_legacy_files/downloads/publication/war_in_the_west_report.pdf https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/d6_legacy_file... [2] http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/mt/2014/04/RTR3L0EB/lead_large.jpg http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/mt/2014/04/RTR3L...
- gozur88 11y ago
  >When you strip away the usual political rhetoric an other distractions, the primary reason the Oregon stand-off didn't turn into a (possibly Waco-style) raid immediately is because the militia members are both white and conservative. I don't believe that for a second. The government certainly didn't hold back at Waco or Ruby Ridge.
  - pdkl95 11y ago
    > Waco I should have included "mainstream xian" in that list. > didn't hold back I don't mean to imply that it's a perfect shield. There are numerous cases where the government has gone after more or less every subgroup. The point is that framing affects how people perceive a situation, which in turn affects how they respond. What framing? Just look at the media. An example from today: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-oregon-militia-standoff-20160116-story.html http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-oregon-mil... "The armed activists occupying a national wildlife refuge ..." ^^^^^^^^^ "... took over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge to protest ..." ^^^^^^^ Do you really the same framing would be used if the people involved were black? If liberals took over a similar federal building as with firearms, do you really think they would still be called "activists" by the media? If they were Muslim, do you really think they would be getting the same low-key treatment by the FBI?
    - gozur88 11y ago
      >Do you really the same framing would be used if the people involved were black? If liberals took over a similar federal building as with firearms, do you really think they would still be called "activists" by the media? Yes, I do. Are you seriously going to pretend the press is more sympathetic to Christians?
      - newjersey 11y ago
        Are you seriously going to pretend that we're not? Come on man. We can't win this one. I mean we have a presidential candidate on stage defending bringing in only Xians as refugees. I am as much intolerant of Muslims as anyone (PC be damned) but I don't think we have a leg to stand on here.