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>I don't think that software development is necessarily a bad career, but I do think it has been vastly oversold relative to other paths available to well educa

>I don't think that software development is necessarily a bad career, but I do think it has been vastly oversold relative to other paths available to well educated, hardworking people who can choose their own career path in the US. So what other paths are nicer, while requiring less up-front risk? Law? Totally flooded with first-jobbers and fresh graduates. Medicine? Salaries being suppressed and debts inflating unless you hit the right specialty. Academia? Oh boy, basically just triple what I said about medicine. At some point we just have to accept that the university-educated, white-collar professional class is being subjected to exactly the same wage repression and rentiering (on housing and education costs) as everyone else. We are all working-class now.

Apocryphon 11y ago
Michael O. Church: "Software engineers aren't a privileged set. They're just less fucked than the rest of the U.S. Former Middle Class." https://www.quora.com/Why-do-software-engineers-make-so-much/answer/Michael-O-Church https://www.quora.com/Why-do-software-engineers-make-so-much...
- madengr 11y ago
  That's a great comment he wrote.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
geebee 11y ago
It's tough across the board, certainly. That said, can you think of another field that experiences a similar same drum beat about a "shortage"? Maybe nursing, though out here in SF, nurses actually do out-earn software developers at the median (US News "best jobs" has a roundup of BLS data), and because (again, this is in SF) they have powerful unions, they don't experience the Disney-stye situation where middle aged nurses are fired and forced to train their replacements as a condition of receiving severance or holding onto their jobs for a while longer. I always have to make sure I say this when I make this comparison: I am absolutely ok with nurses outearning software developers, it's a tough job, they deserve to be well paid. But according to the US News site, even dental hygienists make roughly as much at the median as software developers. Again, I have no problem with this, but it is at odds with the notion that software developers are a wildly well paid group that experiences wonderful perks, and that the big problem is that there's a "shortage" of them. The economic article makes it clear that the aversion to this field may be very rational. Although burnout affects everyone, I do think that software developers face greater age related employment issues than most fields as well. I can't really quantify this, but I don't think that the PR around a "shortage" of nurses reaches the same fever pitch for software developers. Overall, I'd recommend you just go through the "US News Best Jobs" list and check out salaries in high cost regions, relative to software development. Think about job security, stress levels, age discrimination, and so forth. Nothing's perfect, but I think you can make a good case that all of the fields in the top 10 may be preferable to software development.
- revelation 11y ago
  It's evidence that people in these fields are much more attuned with their worth and work conditions. Meanwhile, as this thread will surely very soon demonstrate, software developers have taken the old US notion of hating on unions, peppered in a lack of overtime pay, clauses that claim ownership to things developed in their free time, a culture of big company pretend startups (you know, 60h week little pay all the micro management none of the freedom and ownership) and an attitude towards their own field that equals that of pirates.
  - Apocryphon 11y ago
    I been wondering why devs/hackers, with the passionate for disrupting things and tinkering with systems, don't attempt to disrupt labor. Or rather, disrupt capital/management in favor of labor. Unions are too bureaucratic, corrupt, or at least disreputable in the U.S.? No problem. Create a 21st century equivalent.
    - wyclif 11y ago
      Why don't hackers disrupt labor? 1. Because that's hard 2. Because it would require cooperation and coordination with large groups of people, and the grand mythos of the hacker is one of individualism. This applies to both personalities and projects 3. Disrupting US law isn't like disrupting taxis 4. There are powerful forces preventing labor organisation by hackers 5. Unions are viewed negatively by hackers (you actually covered this one)
- epimetheus 11y ago
  Those nurse salaries are median though, right? It's a terrible comparison. How many nurses get 120k plus shares? My wife is in health care (Physical Therapy) and makes 80k+ which is a bit higher than my own salary, but that's it. No benefits (such as stock, etc), and no chance of higher pay. 80k is about it (she's a clinic director with a large company). I can get half again her salary by commuting 1+ hour a day instead of my 20 minute commute, but she doesn't have that option. The pay in Seattle is pretty much the pay in Tacoma. In fact, she works outside of Tacoma in a small town, so her pay is actually higher than in Seattle, where in web development, that's not the case. Tacoma hires "ninja javascript developers" as low as 35k (according to listings in craigslist that I've seen, and in fact, my first job out of college in the immediate Tacoma area - Gig Harbor - started at 15/hr with a "promise" of 20/hr after 90 days; which turned into 17/hr) So, I don't disagree with your points, but nurses and PTs have a lower ceiling than software engineers. By far.
madengr 11y ago
"Medicine? Salaries being suppressed" How so?
- placeybordeaux 11y ago
  To start off with a medical resident (meaning a person that has obtained their md, but haven't passed the boards yet) has an average salary of 52k. That's pretty damn low for that amount of education and hours worked.
  - CaptSpify 11y ago
    Low, sure, but being low isn't evidence that its being suppressed. That's the symptom
    - placeybordeaux 11y ago
      That number is largely derived from the amount that medicare provides. I can't seem to find a source at hand though.
FLUX-YOU 11y ago
>So what other paths are nicer, while requiring less up-front risk? It's pretty difficult to beat the upfront cost/risk of "Fire up a web browser and a compiler/interpreter and start reading a tutorial". That can lead to an entry level job in 6mo - year or less. Software is really an anomaly in this area especially with tuition costs these days. You can learn math or engineering on your own to lessen the risk of flunking out of a major, but you're still required to spend the time.

Apocryphon 11y ago

Michael O. Church: "Software engineers aren't a privileged set. They're just less fucked than the rest of the U.S. Former Middle Class." https://www.quora.com/Why-do-software-engineers-make-so-much/answer/Michael-O-Church https://www.quora.com/Why-do-software-engineers-make-so-much...

madengr 11y ago
That's a great comment he wrote.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

geebee 11y ago

It's tough across the board, certainly. That said, can you think of another field that experiences a similar same drum beat about a "shortage"? Maybe nursing, though out here in SF, nurses actually do out-earn software developers at the median (US News "best jobs" has a roundup of BLS data), and because (again, this is in SF) they have powerful unions, they don't experience the Disney-stye situation where middle aged nurses are fired and forced to train their replacements as a condition of receiving severance or holding onto their jobs for a while longer. I always have to make sure I say this when I make this comparison: I am absolutely ok with nurses outearning software developers, it's a tough job, they deserve to be well paid. But according to the US News site, even dental hygienists make roughly as much at the median as software developers. Again, I have no problem with this, but it is at odds with the notion that software developers are a wildly well paid group that experiences wonderful perks, and that the big problem is that there's a "shortage" of them. The economic article makes it clear that the aversion to this field may be very rational. Although burnout affects everyone, I do think that software developers face greater age related employment issues than most fields as well. I can't really quantify this, but I don't think that the PR around a "shortage" of nurses reaches the same fever pitch for software developers. Overall, I'd recommend you just go through the "US News Best Jobs" list and check out salaries in high cost regions, relative to software development. Think about job security, stress levels, age discrimination, and so forth. Nothing's perfect, but I think you can make a good case that all of the fields in the top 10 may be preferable to software development.

revelation 11y ago
It's evidence that people in these fields are much more attuned with their worth and work conditions. Meanwhile, as this thread will surely very soon demonstrate, software developers have taken the old US notion of hating on unions, peppered in a lack of overtime pay, clauses that claim ownership to things developed in their free time, a culture of big company pretend startups (you know, 60h week little pay all the micro management none of the freedom and ownership) and an attitude towards their own field that equals that of pirates.
- Apocryphon 11y ago
  I been wondering why devs/hackers, with the passionate for disrupting things and tinkering with systems, don't attempt to disrupt labor. Or rather, disrupt capital/management in favor of labor. Unions are too bureaucratic, corrupt, or at least disreputable in the U.S.? No problem. Create a 21st century equivalent.
  - wyclif 11y ago
    Why don't hackers disrupt labor? 1. Because that's hard 2. Because it would require cooperation and coordination with large groups of people, and the grand mythos of the hacker is one of individualism. This applies to both personalities and projects 3. Disrupting US law isn't like disrupting taxis 4. There are powerful forces preventing labor organisation by hackers 5. Unions are viewed negatively by hackers (you actually covered this one)
epimetheus 11y ago
Those nurse salaries are median though, right? It's a terrible comparison. How many nurses get 120k plus shares? My wife is in health care (Physical Therapy) and makes 80k+ which is a bit higher than my own salary, but that's it. No benefits (such as stock, etc), and no chance of higher pay. 80k is about it (she's a clinic director with a large company). I can get half again her salary by commuting 1+ hour a day instead of my 20 minute commute, but she doesn't have that option. The pay in Seattle is pretty much the pay in Tacoma. In fact, she works outside of Tacoma in a small town, so her pay is actually higher than in Seattle, where in web development, that's not the case. Tacoma hires "ninja javascript developers" as low as 35k (according to listings in craigslist that I've seen, and in fact, my first job out of college in the immediate Tacoma area - Gig Harbor - started at 15/hr with a "promise" of 20/hr after 90 days; which turned into 17/hr) So, I don't disagree with your points, but nurses and PTs have a lower ceiling than software engineers. By far.

madengr 11y ago

"Medicine? Salaries being suppressed" How so?

placeybordeaux 11y ago
To start off with a medical resident (meaning a person that has obtained their md, but haven't passed the boards yet) has an average salary of 52k. That's pretty damn low for that amount of education and hours worked.
- CaptSpify 11y ago
  Low, sure, but being low isn't evidence that its being suppressed. That's the symptom
  - placeybordeaux 11y ago
    That number is largely derived from the amount that medicare provides. I can't seem to find a source at hand though.

FLUX-YOU 11y ago

>So what other paths are nicer, while requiring less up-front risk? It's pretty difficult to beat the upfront cost/risk of "Fire up a web browser and a compiler/interpreter and start reading a tutorial". That can lead to an entry level job in 6mo - year or less. Software is really an anomaly in this area especially with tuition costs these days. You can learn math or engineering on your own to lessen the risk of flunking out of a major, but you're still required to spend the time.