5 ms·

Wow. I'm a little surprised to read such a dim view of the lot of a software developer in the economist. I'm glad to see it in a mainstream publication, thoug

by geebee 11y ago

Wow. I'm a little surprised to read such a dim view of the lot of a software developer in the economist. I'm glad to see it in a mainstream publication, though. I don't think that software development is necessarily a bad career, but I do think it has been vastly oversold relative to other paths available to well educated, hardworking people who can choose their own career path in the US. And I think that this overselling is a big part of a PR campaign to convince congress and the public that there is a shortage of software developers. IN short, while this article presents an unusually pessimistic image of software development as a career, and I may not fully agree with it, I do welcome this rebalancing.

eli_gottlieb 11y ago
>I don't think that software development is necessarily a bad career, but I do think it has been vastly oversold relative to other paths available to well educated, hardworking people who can choose their own career path in the US. So what other paths are nicer, while requiring less up-front risk? Law? Totally flooded with first-jobbers and fresh graduates. Medicine? Salaries being suppressed and debts inflating unless you hit the right specialty. Academia? Oh boy, basically just triple what I said about medicine. At some point we just have to accept that the university-educated, white-collar professional class is being subjected to exactly the same wage repression and rentiering (on housing and education costs) as everyone else. We are all working-class now.
- Apocryphon 11y ago
  Michael O. Church: "Software engineers aren't a privileged set. They're just less fucked than the rest of the U.S. Former Middle Class." https://www.quora.com/Why-do-software-engineers-make-so-much/answer/Michael-O-Church https://www.quora.com/Why-do-software-engineers-make-so-much...
  - madengr 11y ago
    That's a great comment he wrote.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- geebee 11y ago
  It's tough across the board, certainly. That said, can you think of another field that experiences a similar same drum beat about a "shortage"? Maybe nursing, though out here in SF, nurses actually do out-earn software developers at the median (US News "best jobs" has a roundup of BLS data), and because (again, this is in SF) they have powerful unions, they don't experience the Disney-stye situation where middle aged nurses are fired and forced to train their replacements as a condition of receiving severance or holding onto their jobs for a while longer. I always have to make sure I say this when I make this comparison: I am absolutely ok with nurses outearning software developers, it's a tough job, they deserve to be well paid. But according to the US News site, even dental hygienists make roughly as much at the median as software developers. Again, I have no problem with this, but it is at odds with the notion that software developers are a wildly well paid group that experiences wonderful perks, and that the big problem is that there's a "shortage" of them. The economic article makes it clear that the aversion to this field may be very rational. Although burnout affects everyone, I do think that software developers face greater age related employment issues than most fields as well. I can't really quantify this, but I don't think that the PR around a "shortage" of nurses reaches the same fever pitch for software developers. Overall, I'd recommend you just go through the "US News Best Jobs" list and check out salaries in high cost regions, relative to software development. Think about job security, stress levels, age discrimination, and so forth. Nothing's perfect, but I think you can make a good case that all of the fields in the top 10 may be preferable to software development.
  - revelation 11y ago
    It's evidence that people in these fields are much more attuned with their worth and work conditions. Meanwhile, as this thread will surely very soon demonstrate, software developers have taken the old US notion of hating on unions, peppered in a lack of overtime pay, clauses that claim ownership to things developed in their free time, a culture of big company pretend startups (you know, 60h week little pay all the micro management none of the freedom and ownership) and an attitude towards their own field that equals that of pirates.
    - Apocryphon 11y ago
- madengr 11y ago
  "Medicine? Salaries being suppressed" How so?
  - placeybordeaux 11y ago
    To start off with a medical resident (meaning a person that has obtained their md, but haven't passed the boards yet) has an average salary of 52k. That's pretty damn low for that amount of education and hours worked.
    - CaptSpify 11y ago
      Low, sure, but being low isn't evidence that its being suppressed. That's the symptom
      - placeybordeaux 11y ago
        That number is largely derived from the amount that medicare provides. I can't seem to find a source at hand though.
- FLUX-YOU 11y ago
  >So what other paths are nicer, while requiring less up-front risk? It's pretty difficult to beat the upfront cost/risk of "Fire up a web browser and a compiler/interpreter and start reading a tutorial". That can lead to an entry level job in 6mo - year or less. Software is really an anomaly in this area especially with tuition costs these days. You can learn math or engineering on your own to lessen the risk of flunking out of a major, but you're still required to spend the time.
zippergz 11y ago
I make over $200k most years, with a liberal arts bachelor degree. I work in a comfortable office with reasonable hours, no one yells at me, I don't have to get dirty or put myself in physical danger. I take several weeks of vacation a year, I very rarely work a late night, and I have recruiters reaching out to me on a regular basis offering me new opportunities. While I don’t love all aspects of my work (who does?), I also can’t say with a straight face that I don’t have a drastically better situation than most people. If you ask me, software development is a pretty damned good field to be in.
- madengr 11y ago
  What sort of software development, and what area of the country?
  - zippergz 11y ago
    SaaS marketing software in Los Angeles. I've also lived in Seattle and pay was in a similar range there.
    - heckerboy 11y ago
      Los Angeles, huh? I would love to work down in LA, but I've been staying in the Bay because I assumed this was the only place I could earn ~200k. Mind listing some of the companies that pay in that range in LA?
- jaimebuelta 11y ago
  I don't think that $200k is a common salary among tech people. Especially out of Silicon Valley, and, even more so, out of the US (The Economist is a British magazine, after all)
  - zippergz 11y ago
    I didn't say it's salary. That's salary+bonus+stock vesting. This is in line with the total cash comp I've seen and received from most of the major tech companies in the US.

by geebee 11y ago

eli_gottlieb 11y ago

>I don't think that software development is necessarily a bad career, but I do think it has been vastly oversold relative to other paths available to well educated, hardworking people who can choose their own career path in the US. So what other paths are nicer, while requiring less up-front risk? Law? Totally flooded with first-jobbers and fresh graduates. Medicine? Salaries being suppressed and debts inflating unless you hit the right specialty. Academia? Oh boy, basically just triple what I said about medicine. At some point we just have to accept that the university-educated, white-collar professional class is being subjected to exactly the same wage repression and rentiering (on housing and education costs) as everyone else. We are all working-class now.

Apocryphon 11y ago
Michael O. Church: "Software engineers aren't a privileged set. They're just less fucked than the rest of the U.S. Former Middle Class." https://www.quora.com/Why-do-software-engineers-make-so-much/answer/Michael-O-Church https://www.quora.com/Why-do-software-engineers-make-so-much...
- madengr 11y ago
  That's a great comment he wrote.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
geebee 11y ago
It's tough across the board, certainly. That said, can you think of another field that experiences a similar same drum beat about a "shortage"? Maybe nursing, though out here in SF, nurses actually do out-earn software developers at the median (US News "best jobs" has a roundup of BLS data), and because (again, this is in SF) they have powerful unions, they don't experience the Disney-stye situation where middle aged nurses are fired and forced to train their replacements as a condition of receiving severance or holding onto their jobs for a while longer. I always have to make sure I say this when I make this comparison: I am absolutely ok with nurses outearning software developers, it's a tough job, they deserve to be well paid. But according to the US News site, even dental hygienists make roughly as much at the median as software developers. Again, I have no problem with this, but it is at odds with the notion that software developers are a wildly well paid group that experiences wonderful perks, and that the big problem is that there's a "shortage" of them. The economic article makes it clear that the aversion to this field may be very rational. Although burnout affects everyone, I do think that software developers face greater age related employment issues than most fields as well. I can't really quantify this, but I don't think that the PR around a "shortage" of nurses reaches the same fever pitch for software developers. Overall, I'd recommend you just go through the "US News Best Jobs" list and check out salaries in high cost regions, relative to software development. Think about job security, stress levels, age discrimination, and so forth. Nothing's perfect, but I think you can make a good case that all of the fields in the top 10 may be preferable to software development.
- revelation 11y ago
  It's evidence that people in these fields are much more attuned with their worth and work conditions. Meanwhile, as this thread will surely very soon demonstrate, software developers have taken the old US notion of hating on unions, peppered in a lack of overtime pay, clauses that claim ownership to things developed in their free time, a culture of big company pretend startups (you know, 60h week little pay all the micro management none of the freedom and ownership) and an attitude towards their own field that equals that of pirates.
  - Apocryphon 11y ago
madengr 11y ago
"Medicine? Salaries being suppressed" How so?
- placeybordeaux 11y ago
  To start off with a medical resident (meaning a person that has obtained their md, but haven't passed the boards yet) has an average salary of 52k. That's pretty damn low for that amount of education and hours worked.
  - CaptSpify 11y ago
    Low, sure, but being low isn't evidence that its being suppressed. That's the symptom
    - placeybordeaux 11y ago
      That number is largely derived from the amount that medicare provides. I can't seem to find a source at hand though.
FLUX-YOU 11y ago
>So what other paths are nicer, while requiring less up-front risk? It's pretty difficult to beat the upfront cost/risk of "Fire up a web browser and a compiler/interpreter and start reading a tutorial". That can lead to an entry level job in 6mo - year or less. Software is really an anomaly in this area especially with tuition costs these days. You can learn math or engineering on your own to lessen the risk of flunking out of a major, but you're still required to spend the time.

zippergz 11y ago

I make over $200k most years, with a liberal arts bachelor degree. I work in a comfortable office with reasonable hours, no one yells at me, I don't have to get dirty or put myself in physical danger. I take several weeks of vacation a year, I very rarely work a late night, and I have recruiters reaching out to me on a regular basis offering me new opportunities. While I don’t love all aspects of my work (who does?), I also can’t say with a straight face that I don’t have a drastically better situation than most people. If you ask me, software development is a pretty damned good field to be in.

madengr 11y ago
What sort of software development, and what area of the country?
- zippergz 11y ago
  SaaS marketing software in Los Angeles. I've also lived in Seattle and pay was in a similar range there.
  - heckerboy 11y ago
    Los Angeles, huh? I would love to work down in LA, but I've been staying in the Bay because I assumed this was the only place I could earn ~200k. Mind listing some of the companies that pay in that range in LA?
jaimebuelta 11y ago
I don't think that $200k is a common salary among tech people. Especially out of Silicon Valley, and, even more so, out of the US (The Economist is a British magazine, after all)
- zippergz 11y ago
  I didn't say it's salary. That's salary+bonus+stock vesting. This is in line with the total cash comp I've seen and received from most of the major tech companies in the US.