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I assume this is a response to the "Dear Github" letter. I'm fairly certain that everyone involved in that letter (including myself), is very appreciative of Gi

I assume this is a response to the "Dear Github" letter. I'm fairly certain that everyone involved in that letter (including myself), is very appreciative of Github and its impact on OSS. That letter didn't feel ungrateful or malicious at all to me, but I sure hope it didn't come off that way to others. What I do frequently see with Github, is that they've managed to work their way into almost being beyond reproach. This letter feels like an example of that...Almost like Github needs someone to stand up for it in light of some meanies picking on it. It's a good product. We should give credit where credit is due, just don't forget it's a product. A (by all indications), very profitable product that wants to make money off you. That is its goal and purpose in life, and OSS furthers it. For the record, I think this is a good and healthy relationship, but we shouldn't pretend it's some FOSS group or non-profit out struggling to provide us with Git hosting.

cdubzzz 11y ago
> I'm fairly certain that everyone involved in that letter (including myself), is very appreciative of Github and its impact on OSS Well then sign this one too (:
- littletinman 11y ago
  When I read the "Dear GitHub" repo my first thought was, I agree with some of this, but my overall attitude toward GitHub is gratitude and the flexibility to create whatever repo standards you want to. I then saw the "Thank You GitHub" repo and think it's a great way to express that gratitude! I personally do not view these as rival repos. They just express different sentiment and serve two purposes (again not apposing each other). Does this have to be viewed as a polar opposite response to "Dear GitHub"?
  - cdubzzz 11y ago
    > Does this have to be viewed as a polar opposite response to "Dear GitHub"? Certainly not. My comment was in all seriousness. I expect that pretty much anyone signing the Dear Github letter would also feel comfortable signing this one.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - ergothus 11y ago
    > Does this have to be viewed as a polar opposite response to "Dear GitHub"? I can't see how it isn't. I thought the original was quite clear that they appreciated Github, but this undercuts it. Imagine any scene where you're talking to the manager of some establishment. You say "Hey guys, this is great, but can you fix the blinds, we've been waiting an hour to not be blinded?" Someone next to you pops in with "Hey guys, I love it here!" They've just undercut your argument without even addressing it. It is, frankly, rude.
- joshmanders 11y ago
  Done, I signed it with `dear-github`, so anyone who signs `dear-github` proxies their signature to `thank-you-github`
Gorbzel 11y ago
> That letter didn't feel ungrateful or malicious at all to me, but I sure hope it didn't come off that way to others. It might have; software engineering is a big tent, and people who touch Github (in at least someway) no doubt comprise a huge part of it. Full disclaimer, I'm biased, as I opened an issue attempting to address some potential editorial/tone issues, and the initial response was not good (a big part of that may be questions of who exactly is "involved" with the letter. How should others become involved and contribute in a way the OPs feel is constructive?) As another commenter pointed out, not everything is so black and white. In this case, no one should be "beyond reproach", but what seem like simple issues to Issues may indeed be representative of strong product/technical decisions from an opinionated vendor. IMO it's not inherently clear that the people behind dear-github entirely recognized the nuance here. No one is looking to pick fights or troll anyone, because no, not everyone who is passionate about this issue is a meanie. That said, the original letter and the immediate response could be interpreted as brash, and to that end, I wouldn't be surprised that someone responded with thank-you-github as an opposite reaction.
- hueving 11y ago
  Evaluate the letter based on its content, not the authors.
- DannoHung 11y ago
  > Full disclaimer, I'm biased, as I opened an issue attempting to address some potential editorial/tone issues Is this your issue? https://github.com/dear-github/dear-github/issues/47 https://github.com/dear-github/dear-github/issues/47 If so, the way you've written your issue is almost incomprehensible and your point is seriously irrelevant to the requests made by the project creators.
  - Gorbzel 11y ago
    I'll admit that it was later in the evening and has been a long week, and also that the line between being opinionated and being an opinionated jerk is sometimes thinner than it may initially seem. However, while it's not the normal type of (technical, to the point) issue that one sees on a github project in that it deals with questions of values, intentions, and whether all product companies that FOSS projects use have an obligation to maintain similar values as those projects, it's not irrelevant. It's absolutely central to why Github hasn't responded thus far and whether they'll even pay attention to this (and arguably if they should). But if we're lobbing attacks at one another, you don't even try to explain why it's "seriously" irrelevant. Also, the visible response I've gotten thus far from people claiming to be involved with this project has been nothing short of circlejerk. No measured consideration of what actions are being taken, no attempting to understand other people's viewpoints, nothing. Yet when I try to determine who's who and what's what, apparently that's irrelevant, even think it's always people claiming to be "involved" with dear-github who bring it up in the first place.
akash0x53 11y ago
ICYMI "Dear github" https://github.com/dear-github/dear-github https://github.com/dear-github/dear-github
bachmeier 11y ago
> they've managed to work their way into almost being beyond reproach Yep. It's annoying as hell when I tell someone I use Bitbucket and they try to get me to change to Github. And I'm not talking about for FOSS repos, they want me to convert my free Bitbucket repos to paid Github repos, because Github. > A (by all indications), very profitable product that wants to make money off you. That is its goal and purpose in life, and OSS furthers it. I'd go a little further than that. Their strategy, while good for some FOSS projects, is a common marketing tool. I can use Wunderlist, Evernote, and Dropbox for free in a limited capacity as well. The thing about those strategies is that they last as long as it's in the interest of the company to provide them.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  > I'd go a little further than that. Their strategy, while good for some FOSS projects, is a common marketing tool. I can use Wunderlist, Evernote, and Dropbox for free in a limited capacity as well. The thing about those strategies is that they last as long as it's in the interest of the company to provide them. It seems to me like the solution to that is for the git protocol to extend to encompass the Github tools FOSS projects have come to rely on, so Github can never hold open source projects hostage (not that they would, but as the saying goes, "Trust but verify") Git + IPFS [1] + GPG = distributed Github. The hard part is someone building the tooling. [1] https://ipfs.io/ https://ipfs.io/
- xorblurb 11y ago
  Also remember about Sourceforge. I guess some people could have been in the mood to write gratitude letters to them at some point in the past. (Does not mean that GitHub is "bad" or be useful for some free software projects right now, just that from where I am I don't think there should be a special reason to thank such a company in the name of "Open Source" -- at least also thank Linus Torvalds to begin with!...)
  - nodefork 11y ago
    There is PR to thank Linus Torvalds. I hope they merge it https://github.com/thank-you-github/thank-you-github/pull/192 https://github.com/thank-you-github/thank-you-github/pull/19...

cdubzzz 11y ago

> I'm fairly certain that everyone involved in that letter (including myself), is very appreciative of Github and its impact on OSS Well then sign this one too (:

littletinman 11y ago
When I read the "Dear GitHub" repo my first thought was, I agree with some of this, but my overall attitude toward GitHub is gratitude and the flexibility to create whatever repo standards you want to. I then saw the "Thank You GitHub" repo and think it's a great way to express that gratitude! I personally do not view these as rival repos. They just express different sentiment and serve two purposes (again not apposing each other). Does this have to be viewed as a polar opposite response to "Dear GitHub"?
- cdubzzz 11y ago
  > Does this have to be viewed as a polar opposite response to "Dear GitHub"? Certainly not. My comment was in all seriousness. I expect that pretty much anyone signing the Dear Github letter would also feel comfortable signing this one.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- ergothus 11y ago
  > Does this have to be viewed as a polar opposite response to "Dear GitHub"? I can't see how it isn't. I thought the original was quite clear that they appreciated Github, but this undercuts it. Imagine any scene where you're talking to the manager of some establishment. You say "Hey guys, this is great, but can you fix the blinds, we've been waiting an hour to not be blinded?" Someone next to you pops in with "Hey guys, I love it here!" They've just undercut your argument without even addressing it. It is, frankly, rude.
joshmanders 11y ago
Done, I signed it with `dear-github`, so anyone who signs `dear-github` proxies their signature to `thank-you-github`

Gorbzel 11y ago

> That letter didn't feel ungrateful or malicious at all to me, but I sure hope it didn't come off that way to others. It might have; software engineering is a big tent, and people who touch Github (in at least someway) no doubt comprise a huge part of it. Full disclaimer, I'm biased, as I opened an issue attempting to address some potential editorial/tone issues, and the initial response was not good (a big part of that may be questions of who exactly is "involved" with the letter. How should others become involved and contribute in a way the OPs feel is constructive?) As another commenter pointed out, not everything is so black and white. In this case, no one should be "beyond reproach", but what seem like simple issues to Issues may indeed be representative of strong product/technical decisions from an opinionated vendor. IMO it's not inherently clear that the people behind dear-github entirely recognized the nuance here. No one is looking to pick fights or troll anyone, because no, not everyone who is passionate about this issue is a meanie. That said, the original letter and the immediate response could be interpreted as brash, and to that end, I wouldn't be surprised that someone responded with thank-you-github as an opposite reaction.

hueving 11y ago
Evaluate the letter based on its content, not the authors.
DannoHung 11y ago
> Full disclaimer, I'm biased, as I opened an issue attempting to address some potential editorial/tone issues Is this your issue? https://github.com/dear-github/dear-github/issues/47 https://github.com/dear-github/dear-github/issues/47 If so, the way you've written your issue is almost incomprehensible and your point is seriously irrelevant to the requests made by the project creators.
- Gorbzel 11y ago
  I'll admit that it was later in the evening and has been a long week, and also that the line between being opinionated and being an opinionated jerk is sometimes thinner than it may initially seem. However, while it's not the normal type of (technical, to the point) issue that one sees on a github project in that it deals with questions of values, intentions, and whether all product companies that FOSS projects use have an obligation to maintain similar values as those projects, it's not irrelevant. It's absolutely central to why Github hasn't responded thus far and whether they'll even pay attention to this (and arguably if they should). But if we're lobbing attacks at one another, you don't even try to explain why it's "seriously" irrelevant. Also, the visible response I've gotten thus far from people claiming to be involved with this project has been nothing short of circlejerk. No measured consideration of what actions are being taken, no attempting to understand other people's viewpoints, nothing. Yet when I try to determine who's who and what's what, apparently that's irrelevant, even think it's always people claiming to be "involved" with dear-github who bring it up in the first place.

akash0x53 11y ago

ICYMI "Dear github" https://github.com/dear-github/dear-github https://github.com/dear-github/dear-github

bachmeier 11y ago

> they've managed to work their way into almost being beyond reproach Yep. It's annoying as hell when I tell someone I use Bitbucket and they try to get me to change to Github. And I'm not talking about for FOSS repos, they want me to convert my free Bitbucket repos to paid Github repos, because Github. > A (by all indications), very profitable product that wants to make money off you. That is its goal and purpose in life, and OSS furthers it. I'd go a little further than that. Their strategy, while good for some FOSS projects, is a common marketing tool. I can use Wunderlist, Evernote, and Dropbox for free in a limited capacity as well. The thing about those strategies is that they last as long as it's in the interest of the company to provide them.

toomuchtodo 11y ago
> I'd go a little further than that. Their strategy, while good for some FOSS projects, is a common marketing tool. I can use Wunderlist, Evernote, and Dropbox for free in a limited capacity as well. The thing about those strategies is that they last as long as it's in the interest of the company to provide them. It seems to me like the solution to that is for the git protocol to extend to encompass the Github tools FOSS projects have come to rely on, so Github can never hold open source projects hostage (not that they would, but as the saying goes, "Trust but verify") Git + IPFS [1] + GPG = distributed Github. The hard part is someone building the tooling. [1] https://ipfs.io/ https://ipfs.io/
xorblurb 11y ago
Also remember about Sourceforge. I guess some people could have been in the mood to write gratitude letters to them at some point in the past. (Does not mean that GitHub is "bad" or be useful for some free software projects right now, just that from where I am I don't think there should be a special reason to thank such a company in the name of "Open Source" -- at least also thank Linus Torvalds to begin with!...)
- nodefork 11y ago
  There is PR to thank Linus Torvalds. I hope they merge it https://github.com/thank-you-github/thank-you-github/pull/192 https://github.com/thank-you-github/thank-you-github/pull/19...