4 ms·

And who exactly gets to decide what is "fringe"?

by talmand 11y ago

pron 11y ago
I guess that the majority gets to decide. It doesn't really matter what is mainstream and what isn't, as long as there's a place for both. Broadway and off-Broadway are both fine, but mixing them can cause confusion and for both audiences to be disappointed.
- talmand 11y ago
  Ah, majority rules. Which is an excellent system, as long as you are in the majority. Hopefully the majority doesn't decide to remove what is not their agreeable mainstream.
  - pron 11y ago
    I didn't say that the majority rules, just that the majority defines what is mainstream. If you want to run an open-source project that promotes misogynistic values, be our guest -- just don't do it on GitHub. I don't understand what the problem is. In anything -- from TV to theater, music, architecture and social clubs -- there is the mainstream and the fringe. Maybe one day, fringe ideas will become mainstream and maybe not, but as long as the fringe is fringe, it is usually not part of the mainstream. It's pretty much a tautology. The Wire was a superb TV show -- possibly the best -- but it just didn't belong on the broadcast channels. It wasn't censorship (not that I'm suggesting that sophomoric misogynistic jokes are anything like The Wire, but they have no place on GitHub).
    - talmand 11y ago
      >> I didn't say that the majority rules, just that the majority defines what is mainstream. Sorry my friend, that is majority rules. The problem is we already know what this form of thinking eventually leads to. It's happened several times throughout human history. The problem is one group feeling they have the power to dictate to the "other". Especially when the group dynamic and what is considered other changes frequently, leading to more and more problems. You don't even need to read history. Just take an objective look in various areas of the world, and culture, today and you will see it. What you consider your mainstream ideals today may be somebody else's fringe tomorrow. Such as some of these supposed "misogynistic" projects that were using age-old terms that someone recently decided was wrong because they want to somehow change the context of the usage of words. When this happens to you, and it eventually will if the pattern continues, hopefully the group in power will be nice to you.
      - pron 11y ago
        > The problem is one group feeling they have the power to dictate to the "other". Nobody is dictating. Do whatever the hell you want. Just don't put on an off-Broadway shown on Broadway. That's it. > What you consider your mainstream ideals today may be somebody else's fringe tomorrow. Sure, but that doesn't mean you NBC should broadcast Oz. That's what HBO is for (again, I'm not comparing HBO with misogynistic communities or that I think misogyny would become order of the day; but even vile ideas have their place). People know that broadcast TV has certain rules and certain audiences, and if you don't want to follow the rules or address that mainstream audience, your show will not be aired on broadcast TV. You want to call that censorship? Fine, but as long as those "censored" opinions have 100 other cable channels that will air them, that's perfectly fine by me. > that someone recently decided was wrong because they want to somehow change the context of the usage of words. BTW, as a former student of history I can tell you that people always decide to change the context of the use of words in order to make society better (of course, what they think is better). And this pattern is never restricted to just one political group. It is just that political groups always find the others' new contexts annoying.
        talmand 11y ago
        I'm sorry, but I still see examples that only explain what majority rules is. I'm not seeing where you are suggesting one thing or another different than what I've said. Again, it's an excellent system as long as you agree with the majority. I'm assuming you're not suggesting that since people "always" change the context on the usage of somebody else's words that it's an acceptable thing to do.
        pron 11y ago
        > I'm sorry, but I still see examples that only explain what majority rules is. No. What I'm explaining is not how the majority opinion is treated, but how the minority opinion is, namely, it is not blocked. Majority rule could also mean that the minority is barred from voicing their opinions, but that is not the system I'm describing. > Again, it's an excellent system as long as you agree with the majority. I don't know about excellent, but it works well well even if you're not. I can't see how society can operate if every opinion -- no matter how fringe -- is given the same prominence.
- 13thLetter 11y ago
  Unfortunately, we've seen a lot of situations where the "majority," at least of those who speak up, are (for example) opposed to heavily restrictive codes of conduct proposed by outside groups, yet the code is forced through anyway by project leaders. Majority rule seems to be valid only when the majority votes the "right" way.
  - pron 11y ago
    OK, but do you have a better system? The large, mainstream platforms need to be managed somehow, and their content has to be not too far from the consensus. You don't have to like it, but that's how the mainstream operates. As long as you have other venues where you can do stuff that's outside the consensus, I don't see the problem. I think that the way GitHub is managed now in terms of content (including code of conduct enforced by project leads) is very reasonable for a mainstream platform. Personally, I don't know if research shows open-source code-of-conduct helps curtail the very real, very serious problem of online-community marginalization (I have seen research on that) or not, but I'd rather defer to the experts, and in any case, it's worth a try. Just as code should be written by expert programmers, community management should be directed by the advice of social experts. Again, I don't know if this is backed by research or an experiment in itself to see if the approach is effective, but I'd rather trust people who devote their lives to studying the issue than to programmers who just "feel" this is wrong. If programmers want to run their own communities and not rely on the advice of experts, they're welcome to do it outside the mainstream platforms. If their approach works better to decrease marginalization, I'm sure the experts will take it to heart.
    - 13thLetter 11y ago
      Oh, I agree with you as far as majority rules. It's not great, but you need something and that's less unjust than most other options. What I'm complaining (pointlessly) about is that in these cases majority does not rule: some administrator or corporate functionary has already decided, and that's that. With regards to who should be trusted to manage communities, I'm afraid I can't convince myself to believe in the experts. In most cases, these "experts" are not people who have successfully managed communities or are even particularly well educated on how they work; they are self-appointed thought leaders with, often, fringe agendas and little concern for who gets trampled in the process of enacting them. They are generally the last possible people you would want to put in charge of anything. >. If programmers want to run their own communities and not rely on the advice of experts, they're welcome to do it outside the mainstream platforms. Not if the "experts" do everything in their power to marginalize and poison the public image of those non-mainstream platforms, unfortunately. I think it was either Scott Alexander or one of his commenters who pointed out that, if you take over a community and impose anti-witchcraft policies, you can then easily dismiss any alternate communities -- with a certain amount of accuracy, even -- as being full of witches.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

And who exactly gets to decide what is "fringe"?

by talmand 11y ago

And who exactly gets to decide what is "fringe"?

pron 11y ago

I guess that the majority gets to decide. It doesn't really matter what is mainstream and what isn't, as long as there's a place for both. Broadway and off-Broadway are both fine, but mixing them can cause confusion and for both audiences to be disappointed.

talmand 11y ago
Ah, majority rules. Which is an excellent system, as long as you are in the majority. Hopefully the majority doesn't decide to remove what is not their agreeable mainstream.
- pron 11y ago
  I didn't say that the majority rules, just that the majority defines what is mainstream. If you want to run an open-source project that promotes misogynistic values, be our guest -- just don't do it on GitHub. I don't understand what the problem is. In anything -- from TV to theater, music, architecture and social clubs -- there is the mainstream and the fringe. Maybe one day, fringe ideas will become mainstream and maybe not, but as long as the fringe is fringe, it is usually not part of the mainstream. It's pretty much a tautology. The Wire was a superb TV show -- possibly the best -- but it just didn't belong on the broadcast channels. It wasn't censorship (not that I'm suggesting that sophomoric misogynistic jokes are anything like The Wire, but they have no place on GitHub).
  - talmand 11y ago
    >> I didn't say that the majority rules, just that the majority defines what is mainstream. Sorry my friend, that is majority rules. The problem is we already know what this form of thinking eventually leads to. It's happened several times throughout human history. The problem is one group feeling they have the power to dictate to the "other". Especially when the group dynamic and what is considered other changes frequently, leading to more and more problems. You don't even need to read history. Just take an objective look in various areas of the world, and culture, today and you will see it. What you consider your mainstream ideals today may be somebody else's fringe tomorrow. Such as some of these supposed "misogynistic" projects that were using age-old terms that someone recently decided was wrong because they want to somehow change the context of the usage of words. When this happens to you, and it eventually will if the pattern continues, hopefully the group in power will be nice to you.
    - pron 11y ago
      > The problem is one group feeling they have the power to dictate to the "other". Nobody is dictating. Do whatever the hell you want. Just don't put on an off-Broadway shown on Broadway. That's it. > What you consider your mainstream ideals today may be somebody else's fringe tomorrow. Sure, but that doesn't mean you NBC should broadcast Oz. That's what HBO is for (again, I'm not comparing HBO with misogynistic communities or that I think misogyny would become order of the day; but even vile ideas have their place). People know that broadcast TV has certain rules and certain audiences, and if you don't want to follow the rules or address that mainstream audience, your show will not be aired on broadcast TV. You want to call that censorship? Fine, but as long as those "censored" opinions have 100 other cable channels that will air them, that's perfectly fine by me. > that someone recently decided was wrong because they want to somehow change the context of the usage of words. BTW, as a former student of history I can tell you that people always decide to change the context of the use of words in order to make society better (of course, what they think is better). And this pattern is never restricted to just one political group. It is just that political groups always find the others' new contexts annoying.
      - talmand 11y ago
        I'm sorry, but I still see examples that only explain what majority rules is. I'm not seeing where you are suggesting one thing or another different than what I've said. Again, it's an excellent system as long as you agree with the majority. I'm assuming you're not suggesting that since people "always" change the context on the usage of somebody else's words that it's an acceptable thing to do.
        pron 11y ago
        > I'm sorry, but I still see examples that only explain what majority rules is. No. What I'm explaining is not how the majority opinion is treated, but how the minority opinion is, namely, it is not blocked. Majority rule could also mean that the minority is barred from voicing their opinions, but that is not the system I'm describing. > Again, it's an excellent system as long as you agree with the majority. I don't know about excellent, but it works well well even if you're not. I can't see how society can operate if every opinion -- no matter how fringe -- is given the same prominence.
13thLetter 11y ago
Unfortunately, we've seen a lot of situations where the "majority," at least of those who speak up, are (for example) opposed to heavily restrictive codes of conduct proposed by outside groups, yet the code is forced through anyway by project leaders. Majority rule seems to be valid only when the majority votes the "right" way.
- pron 11y ago
  OK, but do you have a better system? The large, mainstream platforms need to be managed somehow, and their content has to be not too far from the consensus. You don't have to like it, but that's how the mainstream operates. As long as you have other venues where you can do stuff that's outside the consensus, I don't see the problem. I think that the way GitHub is managed now in terms of content (including code of conduct enforced by project leads) is very reasonable for a mainstream platform. Personally, I don't know if research shows open-source code-of-conduct helps curtail the very real, very serious problem of online-community marginalization (I have seen research on that) or not, but I'd rather defer to the experts, and in any case, it's worth a try. Just as code should be written by expert programmers, community management should be directed by the advice of social experts. Again, I don't know if this is backed by research or an experiment in itself to see if the approach is effective, but I'd rather trust people who devote their lives to studying the issue than to programmers who just "feel" this is wrong. If programmers want to run their own communities and not rely on the advice of experts, they're welcome to do it outside the mainstream platforms. If their approach works better to decrease marginalization, I'm sure the experts will take it to heart.
  - 13thLetter 11y ago
    Oh, I agree with you as far as majority rules. It's not great, but you need something and that's less unjust than most other options. What I'm complaining (pointlessly) about is that in these cases majority does not rule: some administrator or corporate functionary has already decided, and that's that. With regards to who should be trusted to manage communities, I'm afraid I can't convince myself to believe in the experts. In most cases, these "experts" are not people who have successfully managed communities or are even particularly well educated on how they work; they are self-appointed thought leaders with, often, fringe agendas and little concern for who gets trampled in the process of enacting them. They are generally the last possible people you would want to put in charge of anything. >. If programmers want to run their own communities and not rely on the advice of experts, they're welcome to do it outside the mainstream platforms. Not if the "experts" do everything in their power to marginalize and poison the public image of those non-mainstream platforms, unfortunately. I think it was either Scott Alexander or one of his commenters who pointed out that, if you take over a community and impose anti-witchcraft policies, you can then easily dismiss any alternate communities -- with a certain amount of accuracy, even -- as being full of witches.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]