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developers having to make iPhone specific version of their app No, that's not what I'm getting at. What I'm getting at is that if they do, or if they use HTML5

by GHFigs 17y ago

developers having to make iPhone specific version of their app No, that's not what I'm getting at. What I'm getting at is that if they do, or if they use HTML5, they're still presenting a better quality product to users of this platform than they would using Flash. To Apple, that is a far more important thing than what they're potentially losing from not supporting Flash. Nobody "has to" develop iPhone apps any more than people "have to" develop Flash apps for the web. It's all about what experience you want to deliver to what audience. Right now, there are compelling reasons to go either way or even both ways. I'm just saying there will never be a time when going in the direction of Flash-based web apps will get you access to the iPhone/iPad audience, an audience which is growing, unlike the Flash audience. So yeah, I think Apple made the right decision both for their own product and for developers who care about the quality of experience they can provide and the money they can make than they do the particular platform they use. Obviously this makes Flash developers unhappy, and Adobe is doing the best they can to cater to those developers with CS5, even if it hastens their own demise. They're locked into the iPhone and you have to pay $99 to deploy them on a real one. Flash apps are locked into the Flash runtime, further locked into whatever platform assumptions you make about performance, etc., and the developer tools are considerably more expensive than $99. You don't get the distribution or sales channel of the App Store (which in spite of all it's faults is still a very valuable thing). If you're developing games, you're going to be giving a cut to whatever sites you're hosted on, etc. I'm not saying that's worse. It's just a different trade-off, and as long as you're depending on any platform vendor, you're always going to be getting a little bit screwed. The question is really about how dependent, how screwed, and how strong is the platform. The same applies to an open platform like HTML5. It may have the market penetration to kill Flash for every use, but the overall outlook is pretty good. But Flash is the only thing that can deliver that right now on desktop (and cover a reasonable audience). Yeah, but we're not really talking about the desktop when we talk about Flash. We're talking about the web, and the web is increasingly used from machines that aren't desktops or laptops. Flash may be installed on 98% or so of desktops and laptops, but if you include "all devices capable of using the web", Adobe's share is much lower and is actually shrinking, and not just because of Apple's products. In terms of who you can reach, Flash is on much shakier footing than most people realize.

chrischen 17y ago
>Flash apps are locked into the Flash runtime, further locked into whatever platform assumptions you make about performance, etc., and the developer tools are considerably more expensive than $99. You don't get the distribution or sales channel of the App Store (which in spite of all it's faults is still a very valuable thing). If you're developing games, you're going to be giving a cut to whatever sites you're hosted on, etc. Actually you can use Open source tools to develop flash apps, like OpenLaszlow. And it's not like there are no distribution channels for your flash app, after all the internet is free and open (as long as you're not in China). I don't really give a damn what's good for Apple. All I know is that there are existing apps I want to use, and I want to use them on my iPhone. I don't care which way makes apple more money. > Yeah, but we're not really talking about the desktop when we talk about Flash. We're talking about the web, and the web is increasingly used from machines that aren't desktops or laptops. Flash may be installed on 98% or so of desktops and laptops, but if you include "all devices capable of using the web", Adobe's share is much lower and is actually shrinking, and not just because of Apple's products. In terms of who you can reach, Flash is on much shakier footing than most people realize. And yet there are still flash apps that I want to use that aren't available on the iPhone. Please understand my concern is not whether this decision was a great decision for Apple. I'm only concerned about whether or not Apple is serving my needs, and whether or not blocking flash is a way to increase their profits or my enjoyment. And frankly I believe at least part of Apple's intentions in blocking flash is to lock you in their own proprietary platform: the app store.
- GHFigs 17y ago
  Actually you can use Open source tools to develop flash apps, like OpenLaszlow Yeah, and? You just get more trade-offs. It's turtles all the way down. And it's not like there are no distribution channels for your flash app, after all the internet is free and open You'll sell more lemonade from a store shelf than a stand on your front lawn. The reason people are willing to give up 30% to a platform vendor or 50% to a game site is that actually getting your product in front of people and giving them a way to give you money is a pretty valuable service. You cannot just put something on some webpage and expect to make a cent. Believe me, many have tried. I don't really give a damn what's good for Apple. I never said you did. I'm just talking about the motives of another party, just like my first post. You seem to care quite a bit about their actions--I'm not clear on whether it's as a developer or as a user or both--so I just assumed that talking about motives would be relevant. It's not really just about Apple, either. Flash is not going to be unseated by iPhone/iPad applications alone, but by the combination of HTML5 and growth of native applications on every platform that doesn't support Flash. And yet there are still flash apps that I want to use that aren't available on the iPhone. Yeah, and? Your point of control here is in choosing not to buy a device which doesn't suit your needs. That should be obvious. But again: you probably don't care about those applications and not the fact that they're built on Flash. From Apple's perspective there are really only two possibilities: either development of Flash alternatives in the form of HTML5 and native applications eventually reach the point that your demands are met by their products, or they that never happens and that forever remains barrier to your interest in what they want to sell. I think there are very good reasons to believe the former is more probable than the latter. You may have dozens of other reasons to not want their product, but so long as you (and most people) don't demand Flash for the sake of Flash, it's nonsensical to include it. I'm only concerned about whether or not Apple is serving my needs... That's your business. I'm simply responding to your comments on my comments. ...whether or not blocking flash is a way to increase their profits or my enjoyment The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they usually go hand in hand. If you buy a product and like it, you have both increased the maker's profits and your enjoyment. Everybody wins. I believe at least part of Apple's intentions in blocking flash is to lock you in their own proprietary platform How? Apple can't force anybody to develop for their platform. I don't see how someone who develops iPhone applications is anymore "locked in" to the platform than someone who develops for the Mac, or Windows, or Flash, or Android, or Xbox, or whatever. I thought the whole complaint about the App Store was that everyone else was "locked out"?

by GHFigs 17y ago

chrischen 17y ago

>Flash apps are locked into the Flash runtime, further locked into whatever platform assumptions you make about performance, etc., and the developer tools are considerably more expensive than $99. You don't get the distribution or sales channel of the App Store (which in spite of all it's faults is still a very valuable thing). If you're developing games, you're going to be giving a cut to whatever sites you're hosted on, etc. Actually you can use Open source tools to develop flash apps, like OpenLaszlow. And it's not like there are no distribution channels for your flash app, after all the internet is free and open (as long as you're not in China). I don't really give a damn what's good for Apple. All I know is that there are existing apps I want to use, and I want to use them on my iPhone. I don't care which way makes apple more money. > Yeah, but we're not really talking about the desktop when we talk about Flash. We're talking about the web, and the web is increasingly used from machines that aren't desktops or laptops. Flash may be installed on 98% or so of desktops and laptops, but if you include "all devices capable of using the web", Adobe's share is much lower and is actually shrinking, and not just because of Apple's products. In terms of who you can reach, Flash is on much shakier footing than most people realize. And yet there are still flash apps that I want to use that aren't available on the iPhone. Please understand my concern is not whether this decision was a great decision for Apple. I'm only concerned about whether or not Apple is serving my needs, and whether or not blocking flash is a way to increase their profits or my enjoyment. And frankly I believe at least part of Apple's intentions in blocking flash is to lock you in their own proprietary platform: the app store.

GHFigs 17y ago
Actually you can use Open source tools to develop flash apps, like OpenLaszlow Yeah, and? You just get more trade-offs. It's turtles all the way down. And it's not like there are no distribution channels for your flash app, after all the internet is free and open You'll sell more lemonade from a store shelf than a stand on your front lawn. The reason people are willing to give up 30% to a platform vendor or 50% to a game site is that actually getting your product in front of people and giving them a way to give you money is a pretty valuable service. You cannot just put something on some webpage and expect to make a cent. Believe me, many have tried. I don't really give a damn what's good for Apple. I never said you did. I'm just talking about the motives of another party, just like my first post. You seem to care quite a bit about their actions--I'm not clear on whether it's as a developer or as a user or both--so I just assumed that talking about motives would be relevant. It's not really just about Apple, either. Flash is not going to be unseated by iPhone/iPad applications alone, but by the combination of HTML5 and growth of native applications on every platform that doesn't support Flash. And yet there are still flash apps that I want to use that aren't available on the iPhone. Yeah, and? Your point of control here is in choosing not to buy a device which doesn't suit your needs. That should be obvious. But again: you probably don't care about those applications and not the fact that they're built on Flash. From Apple's perspective there are really only two possibilities: either development of Flash alternatives in the form of HTML5 and native applications eventually reach the point that your demands are met by their products, or they that never happens and that forever remains barrier to your interest in what they want to sell. I think there are very good reasons to believe the former is more probable than the latter. You may have dozens of other reasons to not want their product, but so long as you (and most people) don't demand Flash for the sake of Flash, it's nonsensical to include it. I'm only concerned about whether or not Apple is serving my needs... That's your business. I'm simply responding to your comments on my comments. ...whether or not blocking flash is a way to increase their profits or my enjoyment The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they usually go hand in hand. If you buy a product and like it, you have both increased the maker's profits and your enjoyment. Everybody wins. I believe at least part of Apple's intentions in blocking flash is to lock you in their own proprietary platform How? Apple can't force anybody to develop for their platform. I don't see how someone who develops iPhone applications is anymore "locked in" to the platform than someone who develops for the Mac, or Windows, or Flash, or Android, or Xbox, or whatever. I thought the whole complaint about the App Store was that everyone else was "locked out"?