4 ms·

And p.s.-- that's not poetry, it's "poetry"

by Towle_ 17y ago

jey 17y ago
It's more of a proof of concept than high literature -- keep in mind that Lojban is a very young language, and there aren't many people even truly fluent in it.
- Towle_ 17y ago
  Any language's poetry draws its meaning, its form, its essence from the words of those millions of people who expressed their ideas and themselves in that language. No contrived language is ever going to be able to express a thought with the same weight, for example, that "wherefore art thou Romeo?" is expressed in English. It's just not possible, and translated meaning isn't enough. You will never have Giants' shoulders to stand on.
  - gnosis 17y ago
    Translated meaning isn't enough? So I suppose all those translations of Shakespeare in to hundreds of human languages isn't enough either; and anyone who claims Shakespeare can be appreciated in anything but English is just "lying to himself and others" (as you said in an earlier post). Sure, any young language isn't going to have a rich history of expressions weighed down with meaning. But I don't think that has anything to do with whether the language is deliberately invented or not. With time, assuming the language is used by a significant number of people, it will acquire such a history. Still, while young languages don't have a rich history compared to older languages, they have other advantages (of which Lojban has plenty). Also remember that the history that has accrued to older languages is a double-edged sword. Because of this "baggage" it's sometimes difficult to express precisely what you mean without being misunderstood (or perhaps to even know what you mean -- see the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis). Lojban is designed to help overcome such difficulties. The other thing to note is that the weighty phrases like "wherefore art thou Romeo?" aren't used very much in everyday speech. It's not like we go around constantly quoting Shakespeare at one another (except occasionally for effect, or humor). We generally communicate using rather simple language and concepts that should have no problem being expressed in even a young (but expressive) language like Lojban.
    - Towle_ 17y ago
      >So I suppose ... anyone who claims Shakespeare can be appreciated in anything but English is just "lying to himself and others" (as you said in an earlier post). It cannot be appreciated to the same degree, no. Just as a 6-year-old cannot appreciate Shakespeare to the same degree that a 50-year-old English literature professor can appreciate it. How this is at all debatable, I have no idea. > With time, assuming the language is used by a significant number of people, it will acquire such a history. This will of course never happen. > Still, while young languages don't have a rich history compared to older languages, they have other advantages (of which Lojban has plenty). There are alternative solutions to requiring everyone to learn a second language. For example, expressing oneself more clearly. This can be accomplished to any desired degree in modern languages. > Also remember that the history that has accrued to older languages is a double-edged sword. Because of this "baggage" it's sometimes difficult to express precisely what you mean without being misunderstood (or perhaps to even know what you mean -- see the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis). Lojban is designed to help overcome such difficulties. On one edge of the sword: the lasting effects of the most skilled manipulators of the given language. The other edge: occasional difficulties with ambiguity and linguistic relativity. To dull the second edge, Lojban requires that we flatten the first. No thanks.
      - gnosis 17y ago
        > > With time, assuming the language is used by a significant > > number of people, it will acquire such a history. > > This will of course never happen. "Man flying? Impossible!" "A man walking on the moon? Preposterous!" "Slavery/segregation is the natural state of man and will never change." "The Third Reich will last a thousand years." "The Soviet Union will never collapse in our lifetime." History is full of surprises. Sure, today Lojban is a fringe language with a few thousand speakers, tops. And there's no indication of any kind of widespread movement to adopt it. But that could change with time. The language is really in its infancy. Of course, it's not likely it'll ever be as popular as any of the major natural languages are today, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of hundreds of thousands or even millions of people speaking it (or a future offspring of it) one day.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  - ntoshev 17y ago
    This argument also means poetry is better in languages spoken by lots of people, in countries with rich history, and later poetry is better than earlier one all other things being equal...
    - Towle_ 17y ago
      All other things are never equal.

And p.s.-- that's not poetry, it's "poetry"

by Towle_ 17y ago

And p.s.-- that's not poetry, it's "poetry"

jey 17y ago

It's more of a proof of concept than high literature -- keep in mind that Lojban is a very young language, and there aren't many people even truly fluent in it.

Towle_ 17y ago
Any language's poetry draws its meaning, its form, its essence from the words of those millions of people who expressed their ideas and themselves in that language. No contrived language is ever going to be able to express a thought with the same weight, for example, that "wherefore art thou Romeo?" is expressed in English. It's just not possible, and translated meaning isn't enough. You will never have Giants' shoulders to stand on.
- gnosis 17y ago
  Translated meaning isn't enough? So I suppose all those translations of Shakespeare in to hundreds of human languages isn't enough either; and anyone who claims Shakespeare can be appreciated in anything but English is just "lying to himself and others" (as you said in an earlier post). Sure, any young language isn't going to have a rich history of expressions weighed down with meaning. But I don't think that has anything to do with whether the language is deliberately invented or not. With time, assuming the language is used by a significant number of people, it will acquire such a history. Still, while young languages don't have a rich history compared to older languages, they have other advantages (of which Lojban has plenty). Also remember that the history that has accrued to older languages is a double-edged sword. Because of this "baggage" it's sometimes difficult to express precisely what you mean without being misunderstood (or perhaps to even know what you mean -- see the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis). Lojban is designed to help overcome such difficulties. The other thing to note is that the weighty phrases like "wherefore art thou Romeo?" aren't used very much in everyday speech. It's not like we go around constantly quoting Shakespeare at one another (except occasionally for effect, or humor). We generally communicate using rather simple language and concepts that should have no problem being expressed in even a young (but expressive) language like Lojban.
  - Towle_ 17y ago
    >So I suppose ... anyone who claims Shakespeare can be appreciated in anything but English is just "lying to himself and others" (as you said in an earlier post). It cannot be appreciated to the same degree, no. Just as a 6-year-old cannot appreciate Shakespeare to the same degree that a 50-year-old English literature professor can appreciate it. How this is at all debatable, I have no idea. > With time, assuming the language is used by a significant number of people, it will acquire such a history. This will of course never happen. > Still, while young languages don't have a rich history compared to older languages, they have other advantages (of which Lojban has plenty). There are alternative solutions to requiring everyone to learn a second language. For example, expressing oneself more clearly. This can be accomplished to any desired degree in modern languages. > Also remember that the history that has accrued to older languages is a double-edged sword. Because of this "baggage" it's sometimes difficult to express precisely what you mean without being misunderstood (or perhaps to even know what you mean -- see the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis). Lojban is designed to help overcome such difficulties. On one edge of the sword: the lasting effects of the most skilled manipulators of the given language. The other edge: occasional difficulties with ambiguity and linguistic relativity. To dull the second edge, Lojban requires that we flatten the first. No thanks.
    - gnosis 17y ago
      > > With time, assuming the language is used by a significant > > number of people, it will acquire such a history. > > This will of course never happen. "Man flying? Impossible!" "A man walking on the moon? Preposterous!" "Slavery/segregation is the natural state of man and will never change." "The Third Reich will last a thousand years." "The Soviet Union will never collapse in our lifetime." History is full of surprises. Sure, today Lojban is a fringe language with a few thousand speakers, tops. And there's no indication of any kind of widespread movement to adopt it. But that could change with time. The language is really in its infancy. Of course, it's not likely it'll ever be as popular as any of the major natural languages are today, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of hundreds of thousands or even millions of people speaking it (or a future offspring of it) one day.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- ntoshev 17y ago
  This argument also means poetry is better in languages spoken by lots of people, in countries with rich history, and later poetry is better than earlier one all other things being equal...
  - Towle_ 17y ago
    All other things are never equal.