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> one of the things I treasure most about our squishy human languages is how much ambiguity they contain Agreed. Designed languages lack...poetry.

by Towle_ 17y ago

jey 17y ago
False. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lojban+poetry http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lojban+poetry
- Towle_ 17y ago
  Thanks for proving my point about ambiguity.
- Towle_ 17y ago
  And p.s.-- that's not poetry, it's "poetry"
  - jey 17y ago
    It's more of a proof of concept than high literature -- keep in mind that Lojban is a very young language, and there aren't many people even truly fluent in it.
    - Towle_ 17y ago
      Any language's poetry draws its meaning, its form, its essence from the words of those millions of people who expressed their ideas and themselves in that language. No contrived language is ever going to be able to express a thought with the same weight, for example, that "wherefore art thou Romeo?" is expressed in English. It's just not possible, and translated meaning isn't enough. You will never have Giants' shoulders to stand on.
      - gnosis 17y ago
        Translated meaning isn't enough? So I suppose all those translations of Shakespeare in to hundreds of human languages isn't enough either; and anyone who claims Shakespeare can be appreciated in anything but English is just "lying to himself and others" (as you said in an earlier post). Sure, any young language isn't going to have a rich history of expressions weighed down with meaning. But I don't think that has anything to do with whether the language is deliberately invented or not. With time, assuming the language is used by a significant number of people, it will acquire such a history. Still, while young languages don't have a rich history compared to older languages, they have other advantages (of which Lojban has plenty). Also remember that the history that has accrued to older languages is a double-edged sword. Because of this "baggage" it's sometimes difficult to express precisely what you mean without being misunderstood (or perhaps to even know what you mean -- see the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis). Lojban is designed to help overcome such difficulties. The other thing to note is that the weighty phrases like "wherefore art thou Romeo?" aren't used very much in everyday speech. It's not like we go around constantly quoting Shakespeare at one another (except occasionally for effect, or humor). We generally communicate using rather simple language and concepts that should have no problem being expressed in even a young (but expressive) language like Lojban.
        Towle_ 17y ago
        >So I suppose ... anyone who claims Shakespeare can be appreciated in anything but English is just "lying to himself and others" (as you said in an earlier post). It cannot be appreciated to the same degree, no. Just as a 6-year-old cannot appreciate Shakespeare to the same degree that a 50-year-old English literature professor can appreciate it. How this is at all debatable, I have no idea. > With time, assuming the language is used by a significant number of people, it will acquire such a history. This will of course never happen. > Still, while young languages don't have a rich history compared to older languages, they have other advantages (of which Lojban has plenty). There are alternative solutions to requiring everyone to learn a second language. For example, expressing oneself more clearly. This can be accomplished to any desired degree in modern languages. > Also remember that the history that has accrued to older languages is a double-edged sword. Because of this "baggage" it's sometimes difficult to express precisely what you mean without being misunderstood (or perhaps to even know what you mean -- see the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis). Lojban is designed to help overcome such difficulties. On one edge of the sword: the lasting effects of the most skilled manipulators of the given language. The other edge: occasional difficulties with ambiguity and linguistic relativity. To dull the second edge, Lojban requires that we flatten the first. No thanks.
      - deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
      - ntoshev 17y ago
        This argument also means poetry is better in languages spoken by lots of people, in countries with rich history, and later poetry is better than earlier one all other things being equal...
        Towle_ 17y ago
        All other things are never equal.
gnosis 17y ago
I understand that you mean "poetry" in the metaphorical, not literal sense. Still the point about literal poetry being possible in Lojban is an important one: "Original poetry has already been written in Lojban, and some has been translated into the language. Lojban's powerful tanru metaphor structure allows you to build concepts into words easily, as you need them, and has been used to create colorful images and to convey moving emotions. A Lojban speaker doesn't need a dictionary to use and understand millions of words that can potentially exist in the language. The absence of cultural constraints makes consideration of new ideas and relationships easier than in natural languages, spurring creativity. Lojban aids in communicating abstractions by identifying their nature explicitly. Lojban is thus a very powerful language, not only for poetry, but for discussing such abstract fields as philosophy, physics, metaphysics, and religion. Lojban poets are already experimenting with new (and old) forms of poetry that seem especially well suited to the rhythm, sound, and flow of the language. Rarely do poets have such an opportunity to affect the development of a new language as they now can with Lojban. Lojban's rich and powerful. Lojban unleashes the full potential of poetic expression to communicate both concrete and abstract ideas." http://www.lojban.org/publications/level0/brochure/lojbanmo.html#AEN504 http://www.lojban.org/publications/level0/brochure/lojbanmo....
- Towle_ 17y ago
  > Lojban unleashes the full potential of poetic expression Whoever wrote that is lying to himself and others. Please refer to my lower post (the one containing "wherefore art thou Romeo?") for a partial but sufficient explanation.

> one of the things I treasure most about our squishy human languages is how much ambiguity they contain Agreed. Designed languages lack...poetry.

by Towle_ 17y ago

> one of the things I treasure most about our squishy human languages is how much ambiguity they contain Agreed. Designed languages lack...poetry.

jey 17y ago

False. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lojban+poetry http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lojban+poetry

Towle_ 17y ago
Thanks for proving my point about ambiguity.
Towle_ 17y ago
And p.s.-- that's not poetry, it's "poetry"
- jey 17y ago
  It's more of a proof of concept than high literature -- keep in mind that Lojban is a very young language, and there aren't many people even truly fluent in it.
  - Towle_ 17y ago
    Any language's poetry draws its meaning, its form, its essence from the words of those millions of people who expressed their ideas and themselves in that language. No contrived language is ever going to be able to express a thought with the same weight, for example, that "wherefore art thou Romeo?" is expressed in English. It's just not possible, and translated meaning isn't enough. You will never have Giants' shoulders to stand on.
    - gnosis 17y ago
      Translated meaning isn't enough? So I suppose all those translations of Shakespeare in to hundreds of human languages isn't enough either; and anyone who claims Shakespeare can be appreciated in anything but English is just "lying to himself and others" (as you said in an earlier post). Sure, any young language isn't going to have a rich history of expressions weighed down with meaning. But I don't think that has anything to do with whether the language is deliberately invented or not. With time, assuming the language is used by a significant number of people, it will acquire such a history. Still, while young languages don't have a rich history compared to older languages, they have other advantages (of which Lojban has plenty). Also remember that the history that has accrued to older languages is a double-edged sword. Because of this "baggage" it's sometimes difficult to express precisely what you mean without being misunderstood (or perhaps to even know what you mean -- see the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis). Lojban is designed to help overcome such difficulties. The other thing to note is that the weighty phrases like "wherefore art thou Romeo?" aren't used very much in everyday speech. It's not like we go around constantly quoting Shakespeare at one another (except occasionally for effect, or humor). We generally communicate using rather simple language and concepts that should have no problem being expressed in even a young (but expressive) language like Lojban.
      - Towle_ 17y ago
        >So I suppose ... anyone who claims Shakespeare can be appreciated in anything but English is just "lying to himself and others" (as you said in an earlier post). It cannot be appreciated to the same degree, no. Just as a 6-year-old cannot appreciate Shakespeare to the same degree that a 50-year-old English literature professor can appreciate it. How this is at all debatable, I have no idea. > With time, assuming the language is used by a significant number of people, it will acquire such a history. This will of course never happen. > Still, while young languages don't have a rich history compared to older languages, they have other advantages (of which Lojban has plenty). There are alternative solutions to requiring everyone to learn a second language. For example, expressing oneself more clearly. This can be accomplished to any desired degree in modern languages. > Also remember that the history that has accrued to older languages is a double-edged sword. Because of this "baggage" it's sometimes difficult to express precisely what you mean without being misunderstood (or perhaps to even know what you mean -- see the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis). Lojban is designed to help overcome such difficulties. On one edge of the sword: the lasting effects of the most skilled manipulators of the given language. The other edge: occasional difficulties with ambiguity and linguistic relativity. To dull the second edge, Lojban requires that we flatten the first. No thanks.
    - deleted 17y ago
      [deleted]
    - ntoshev 17y ago
      This argument also means poetry is better in languages spoken by lots of people, in countries with rich history, and later poetry is better than earlier one all other things being equal...
      - Towle_ 17y ago
        All other things are never equal.

gnosis 17y ago

I understand that you mean "poetry" in the metaphorical, not literal sense. Still the point about literal poetry being possible in Lojban is an important one: "Original poetry has already been written in Lojban, and some has been translated into the language. Lojban's powerful tanru metaphor structure allows you to build concepts into words easily, as you need them, and has been used to create colorful images and to convey moving emotions. A Lojban speaker doesn't need a dictionary to use and understand millions of words that can potentially exist in the language. The absence of cultural constraints makes consideration of new ideas and relationships easier than in natural languages, spurring creativity. Lojban aids in communicating abstractions by identifying their nature explicitly. Lojban is thus a very powerful language, not only for poetry, but for discussing such abstract fields as philosophy, physics, metaphysics, and religion. Lojban poets are already experimenting with new (and old) forms of poetry that seem especially well suited to the rhythm, sound, and flow of the language. Rarely do poets have such an opportunity to affect the development of a new language as they now can with Lojban. Lojban's rich and powerful. Lojban unleashes the full potential of poetic expression to communicate both concrete and abstract ideas." http://www.lojban.org/publications/level0/brochure/lojbanmo.html#AEN504 http://www.lojban.org/publications/level0/brochure/lojbanmo....

Towle_ 17y ago
> Lojban unleashes the full potential of poetic expression Whoever wrote that is lying to himself and others. Please refer to my lower post (the one containing "wherefore art thou Romeo?") for a partial but sufficient explanation.