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Because unlike debit cards a bank can't reverse a Bitcoin theft and would be on the hook for the losses or would pass them to the customer at which point they'r

Because unlike debit cards a bank can't reverse a Bitcoin theft and would be on the hook for the losses or would pass them to the customer at which point they're back to square one.

herbst 11y ago
Banks also pass the costs for all the credit card frauds to customers. Where is the difference?
- sanswork 11y ago
  No they pass it to the merchants not the end users by reversing the transactions. With Bitcoin they can't do that so they either hold the risk themselves or they offload it to the end users and that's not going to float with end users.
  - herbst 11y ago
    What? So when i am a merchant and someone frauds me it is my problem? Even thought the fraud was only possible because their system is shit? Thats exactly why i would use Bitcoin over all as merchant, like more and more do already.
    - sanswork 11y ago
      That's the risk you agree to when you accept credit cards as a merchant. You can take actions to reduce that risk but you can't completely remove it. In exchange you get access to millions of additional customers. Almost no one uses Bitcoin over credit cards unless they have no other choice because consumers don't use Bitcoin. Why would I as s customer choose you that only accepts Bitcoin which gives me no protections when I can use your competitor which accepts credit cards? I wouldn't and pretty much every merchant that's started accepting Bitcoin has discovered the same thing.
      - herbst 11y ago
        Personally i buy in shops that take Bitcoins regulary. Regulary paying a bigger "higher" price than the competitor who takes CC. In the end i usually get out of it cheaper because of all the fees i don't have to pay. IMO your argument is invalid and only shows one specific site, that of the people who simply refuse to accept Bitcoin as anything.
    - datapat 11y ago
      What, so when I'm a customer and a merchant scams me out of Bitcoin, it's my problem? Even though the theft was only possible because that's precisely how Bitcoin is designed to 'work'? That's exactly why I would not use Bitcoin as a customer, like virtually everyone else on the planet.
  - aianus 11y ago
    > No they pass it to the merchants not the end users by reversing the transactions. That depends on the transaction. They obviously can't reverse a skimmed card withdrawing cash at an ATM and AFAIK they don't reverse card-present transactions with a signature or valid PIN. Between the money saved from cutting out the other middlemen in the payment card scam (card networks, intermediary banks, payment processors) and the revenue gained from adding a small fee to Bitcoin withdrawals, there's no reason it can't be economically feasible for banks to offer it. And if you're wondering why anyone would ever use Bitcoin when they already have a bank account, I have a whole list of use cases in another comment on this thread.
    - sanswork 11y ago
      How much do you think banks pay those other middlemen? Sure there is I already gave it. It's difficult(though not impossible) and very risky to withdraw large amounts of cash from skimmed cards and that's to chip and pin that's getting even harder. It's easy to make an irreversible Bitcoin transfer from someone who you have hacked. And you can do it from anywhere in the world. The banks aren't going to save money with Bitcoin because they make a ton with credit cards. Yes I saw you listed almost every killer app that's failed to find a footing in the Bitcoin world because it pin doesn't do anything but DNMs better.
      - aianus 11y ago
        > How much do you think banks pay those other middlemen? Visa, Mastercard, and PayPal alone rake in $28 billion a year in net revenues. That's $90 a year for every man, woman, and child in the US for doing, as far as I can tell, basically shit-all. > The banks aren't going to save money with Bitcoin because they make a ton with credit cards. They make a lot from the lending aspect, they don't make much at all from the transaction fees after rewards schemes, paying off all the middlemen, and fighting fraud. > Yes I saw you listed almost every killer app that's failed to find a footing in the Bitcoin world I've personally used Bitcoin for all of those use cases except the cross-border billing/shipping transaction example (in which the merchant didn't accept Bitcoin so I was simply unable to complete the transaction). It significantly outperformed my other options, especially remittance where I've saved thousands of dollars in fees and exchange rate markups. Edit: I just noticed you're in Thailand too. Thai ATMs charge $6 a pop plus ~1.3% FX markup so I wrote a script that polls the price on the biggest Thai Bitcoin broker and alerts you when the price is beneficial: https://github.com/aianus/coinscoth-notifier https://github.com/aianus/coinscoth-notifier Saved ~$200 just from that script; more than all the credit card rewards and chargebacks I've ever made in my life.

Because unlike debit cards a bank can't reverse a Bitcoin theft and would be on the hook for the losses or would pass them to the customer at which point they're back to square one.

herbst 11y ago

Banks also pass the costs for all the credit card frauds to customers. Where is the difference?

sanswork 11y ago
No they pass it to the merchants not the end users by reversing the transactions. With Bitcoin they can't do that so they either hold the risk themselves or they offload it to the end users and that's not going to float with end users.
- herbst 11y ago
  What? So when i am a merchant and someone frauds me it is my problem? Even thought the fraud was only possible because their system is shit? Thats exactly why i would use Bitcoin over all as merchant, like more and more do already.
  - sanswork 11y ago
    That's the risk you agree to when you accept credit cards as a merchant. You can take actions to reduce that risk but you can't completely remove it. In exchange you get access to millions of additional customers. Almost no one uses Bitcoin over credit cards unless they have no other choice because consumers don't use Bitcoin. Why would I as s customer choose you that only accepts Bitcoin which gives me no protections when I can use your competitor which accepts credit cards? I wouldn't and pretty much every merchant that's started accepting Bitcoin has discovered the same thing.
    - herbst 11y ago
      Personally i buy in shops that take Bitcoins regulary. Regulary paying a bigger "higher" price than the competitor who takes CC. In the end i usually get out of it cheaper because of all the fees i don't have to pay. IMO your argument is invalid and only shows one specific site, that of the people who simply refuse to accept Bitcoin as anything.
  - datapat 11y ago
    What, so when I'm a customer and a merchant scams me out of Bitcoin, it's my problem? Even though the theft was only possible because that's precisely how Bitcoin is designed to 'work'? That's exactly why I would not use Bitcoin as a customer, like virtually everyone else on the planet.
- aianus 11y ago
  > No they pass it to the merchants not the end users by reversing the transactions. That depends on the transaction. They obviously can't reverse a skimmed card withdrawing cash at an ATM and AFAIK they don't reverse card-present transactions with a signature or valid PIN. Between the money saved from cutting out the other middlemen in the payment card scam (card networks, intermediary banks, payment processors) and the revenue gained from adding a small fee to Bitcoin withdrawals, there's no reason it can't be economically feasible for banks to offer it. And if you're wondering why anyone would ever use Bitcoin when they already have a bank account, I have a whole list of use cases in another comment on this thread.
  - sanswork 11y ago
    How much do you think banks pay those other middlemen? Sure there is I already gave it. It's difficult(though not impossible) and very risky to withdraw large amounts of cash from skimmed cards and that's to chip and pin that's getting even harder. It's easy to make an irreversible Bitcoin transfer from someone who you have hacked. And you can do it from anywhere in the world. The banks aren't going to save money with Bitcoin because they make a ton with credit cards. Yes I saw you listed almost every killer app that's failed to find a footing in the Bitcoin world because it pin doesn't do anything but DNMs better.
    - aianus 11y ago
      > How much do you think banks pay those other middlemen? Visa, Mastercard, and PayPal alone rake in $28 billion a year in net revenues. That's $90 a year for every man, woman, and child in the US for doing, as far as I can tell, basically shit-all. > The banks aren't going to save money with Bitcoin because they make a ton with credit cards. They make a lot from the lending aspect, they don't make much at all from the transaction fees after rewards schemes, paying off all the middlemen, and fighting fraud. > Yes I saw you listed almost every killer app that's failed to find a footing in the Bitcoin world I've personally used Bitcoin for all of those use cases except the cross-border billing/shipping transaction example (in which the merchant didn't accept Bitcoin so I was simply unable to complete the transaction). It significantly outperformed my other options, especially remittance where I've saved thousands of dollars in fees and exchange rate markups. Edit: I just noticed you're in Thailand too. Thai ATMs charge $6 a pop plus ~1.3% FX markup so I wrote a script that polls the price on the biggest Thai Bitcoin broker and alerts you when the price is beneficial: https://github.com/aianus/coinscoth-notifier https://github.com/aianus/coinscoth-notifier Saved ~$200 just from that script; more than all the credit card rewards and chargebacks I've ever made in my life.