6 ms·

> there aren't many TV shows on preparing for hurricane season. You're making my point for me. Statistically speaking hurricane prepping is much bigger deal i

> there aren't many TV shows on preparing for hurricane season. You're making my point for me. Statistically speaking hurricane prepping is much bigger deal in America than survivalism but yet the TV media campaign leaves outsiders with an exaggerated impression of the situation. Some think this occurred just because it makes for good TV, but I think it's also part of a larger campaign to sell more hamburgers and wal-mart stock. > While if there is a strong social safety net (as in many places in Europe), and you believe the government will be effective at responding to a natural disasters, then there's less need of a belief to take on the heavier burden of individual planning. I don't think that the social safety net is as strong in Europe for the exact reason that you think it is. In other words in Europe nobody has a choice but to rely solely on the government to stabilize the situation after a major emergency because they don't have the firearms they would need to restore peace on their own. In America however it's a different story because hundreds of thousands if not millions of veterans currently own rifles strikingly similar to those they carried in the armed forces, lacking only the full-automatic selector switch. Their brothers, sisters, parents, friends, and neighbors who did not serve in the military are often just as familiar with the weapons, if not the tactics. Many of these Soldiers and Marines have special operations training. They are former warriors with experience at conducting irregular warfare and counter-terrorism operations in dangerous urban environments. In the Middle East these troops were frequently tasked with restoring order to urban areas exploding in internecine strife. Today these former military men and women understand better than anyone the life-or-death difference between being armed and organized versus unarmed and disorganized. One could even say it's part of our culture. That's a real social safety net in my view, and since we have this safety net we like to enhance it, by taking simple steps to be more prepared, while in Europe I get the feeling that some people feel like 'why even bother' ?

Pamar 11y ago
I am European. I think that you are right about the fact we expect to rely on government support more (there are civilian groups for emergency, but when they "mobilize" they report and take orders from government representatives, at least in my country). What I find a bit odd is the fact that you seem to imply that "having access to firearms" is really the main priority. Ok, there is a flood and we are forced to take refuge on the roof of our houses. When (if) someone comes to rescue us do we go with them because they have rifles, or because they have a boat, food, first aid, and a plan about how and where to take us until the flood subsides?
- hackercomplex 11y ago
  It's more like.. a disaster happens, so police response times have lapsed, dropped to days. Not everyone is stranded on their roof, tons of people have food but the real problem is that now heavily armed and well organized drug gangs are able to operate with impunity, and brutality, seizing whatever they wish (including the food)... It's a power-grab situation for a few days, or for however long the power stays off, or it would be, if combat veterans and ordinary Americans weren't so well armed.
  - dalke 11y ago
    In the last 50 years of European history, has something like this happened? For example, in 2014, southeast Europe received record levels of rain, which lead to wide-spread flooding and landslides. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Southeast_Europe_floods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Southeast_Europe_floods which points out that it was the most rain in 120 years of recorded history. Some areas were isolated for a few days, 300,000 households were left without electric power, etc. How close were they to having drug gangs or other groups take over local power? Do you have any evidence to back up your thesis? How would additional weapons have helped the situation that actually did occur? What mix of weapons should they have had? Are there any lessons from other European floods (the recent British floods, the North Sea flood of 1962, the 1953 storm and floods, etc.) to show how perilously close things were to total discord, which would have been solved by more weapons backed by combat veterans? (Of course, in the 1950s and 1960s, most of Europe lived through WWII and many were combat veterans. But they didn't have the weapons you think are essential. Yet somehow they survived.)
    - hackercomplex 11y ago
      There's ample evidence in particular if you study the Kosovo War outbreak there were situations where regions were cut off from supplies, power was lost, but yet there was no invasion or shelling. Ireland comes to mind, there are some examples..
      - 11y ago
dalke 11y ago
I am confused about your response. This document, which is titled 'Doomsday planning for less crazy folk' and starts 'The prepper culture begs to be taken with a grain of salt..' appears to include hurricane preparations as part of 'the prepper culture', making hurricane preparations a proper subset of the prepper culture. Yet with "Statistically speaking hurricane prepping is much bigger deal in America than survivalism" you imply that 'survivalism' does not include hurricane prepping, so is not the same as the 'prepper culture' from the paper. Since you identified pre-WWII farm culture as being close to prepper culture, could you explain how survivalism fits in, and how it's different from hurricane prepping? Because I think you are talking looking at the similarities in self-sufficiency. In that case, isn't the back-to-the-soil movement of the 1960s more similar to pre-WWII farming culture than the prepper culture, despite the lack of interest in weapons in that movement? > I think it's also part of a larger campaign to sell more hamburgers and wal-mart stock That seems like rather weak evidence. Statistically speaking, presidents on TV get killed a lot more in real life, and space aliens visit Earth a lot. Once upon a time I thought the popularity of all of the SF shows was part of a larger campaign to get us used to the idea of extraterrestrial life, before making the announcement that aliens existed. I appear to have been wrong, as I had no idea at the time that space aliens had been part of TV culture for decades, and it's been decades more without announcement. How will you know if you are wrong? > because they don't have the firearms they would need to restore peace on their own. Do you have any idea of how may firearms (per capita) are needed for that? Because Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, and France are still in the top list of countries in per capita gun ownership. How many more will they need? > after a major emergency That is a very broad topic. Sweden, for example, had many preparations for a nuclear exchange, including tax rebates for people who built bomb/fallout shelters in their homes. Switzerland still requires households to maintain a year supply of food, and a bomb shelter. How is it that in all these preparations, they've forgotten to ensure a large enough supply of weapons for post-nuclear internal peace keeping? > hundreds of thousands if not millions of veterans currently own rifles strikingly similar to those they carried in the armed forces Yes, and Switzerland "The vast majority of men between the ages of 20 and 34 are conscripted into the militia and undergo military training, including weapons training", though they don't keep ammunition at home. In the 1990s, my European co-workers in the US, who were all of draft age during the Cold War, had been conscripted, including from Germany, Austria, Romania, Bulgaria - from both sides of the Iron Curtain. My Army wife and an Iranian ex-co-worker swapped stories about serving in the same part of the Middle East, just on opposite sides of the border. So plenty of Europeans have some experience in the military, at least for some countries. > In the Middle East these troops were frequently tasked with restoring order to urban areas exploding in internecine strife Now you're going on a tangent that seems little to do with pre-WWII farming culture. What sort of military training, and more importantly special forces operation experience, did your grandmother's family have, and how was it useful for their farm life?

Pamar 11y ago

I am European. I think that you are right about the fact we expect to rely on government support more (there are civilian groups for emergency, but when they "mobilize" they report and take orders from government representatives, at least in my country). What I find a bit odd is the fact that you seem to imply that "having access to firearms" is really the main priority. Ok, there is a flood and we are forced to take refuge on the roof of our houses. When (if) someone comes to rescue us do we go with them because they have rifles, or because they have a boat, food, first aid, and a plan about how and where to take us until the flood subsides?

hackercomplex 11y ago
It's more like.. a disaster happens, so police response times have lapsed, dropped to days. Not everyone is stranded on their roof, tons of people have food but the real problem is that now heavily armed and well organized drug gangs are able to operate with impunity, and brutality, seizing whatever they wish (including the food)... It's a power-grab situation for a few days, or for however long the power stays off, or it would be, if combat veterans and ordinary Americans weren't so well armed.
- dalke 11y ago
  In the last 50 years of European history, has something like this happened? For example, in 2014, southeast Europe received record levels of rain, which lead to wide-spread flooding and landslides. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Southeast_Europe_floods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Southeast_Europe_floods which points out that it was the most rain in 120 years of recorded history. Some areas were isolated for a few days, 300,000 households were left without electric power, etc. How close were they to having drug gangs or other groups take over local power? Do you have any evidence to back up your thesis? How would additional weapons have helped the situation that actually did occur? What mix of weapons should they have had? Are there any lessons from other European floods (the recent British floods, the North Sea flood of 1962, the 1953 storm and floods, etc.) to show how perilously close things were to total discord, which would have been solved by more weapons backed by combat veterans? (Of course, in the 1950s and 1960s, most of Europe lived through WWII and many were combat veterans. But they didn't have the weapons you think are essential. Yet somehow they survived.)
  - hackercomplex 11y ago
    There's ample evidence in particular if you study the Kosovo War outbreak there were situations where regions were cut off from supplies, power was lost, but yet there was no invasion or shelling. Ireland comes to mind, there are some examples..
    - 11y ago

dalke 11y ago

I am confused about your response. This document, which is titled 'Doomsday planning for less crazy folk' and starts 'The prepper culture begs to be taken with a grain of salt..' appears to include hurricane preparations as part of 'the prepper culture', making hurricane preparations a proper subset of the prepper culture. Yet with "Statistically speaking hurricane prepping is much bigger deal in America than survivalism" you imply that 'survivalism' does not include hurricane prepping, so is not the same as the 'prepper culture' from the paper. Since you identified pre-WWII farm culture as being close to prepper culture, could you explain how survivalism fits in, and how it's different from hurricane prepping? Because I think you are talking looking at the similarities in self-sufficiency. In that case, isn't the back-to-the-soil movement of the 1960s more similar to pre-WWII farming culture than the prepper culture, despite the lack of interest in weapons in that movement? > I think it's also part of a larger campaign to sell more hamburgers and wal-mart stock That seems like rather weak evidence. Statistically speaking, presidents on TV get killed a lot more in real life, and space aliens visit Earth a lot. Once upon a time I thought the popularity of all of the SF shows was part of a larger campaign to get us used to the idea of extraterrestrial life, before making the announcement that aliens existed. I appear to have been wrong, as I had no idea at the time that space aliens had been part of TV culture for decades, and it's been decades more without announcement. How will you know if you are wrong? > because they don't have the firearms they would need to restore peace on their own. Do you have any idea of how may firearms (per capita) are needed for that? Because Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, and France are still in the top list of countries in per capita gun ownership. How many more will they need? > after a major emergency That is a very broad topic. Sweden, for example, had many preparations for a nuclear exchange, including tax rebates for people who built bomb/fallout shelters in their homes. Switzerland still requires households to maintain a year supply of food, and a bomb shelter. How is it that in all these preparations, they've forgotten to ensure a large enough supply of weapons for post-nuclear internal peace keeping? > hundreds of thousands if not millions of veterans currently own rifles strikingly similar to those they carried in the armed forces Yes, and Switzerland "The vast majority of men between the ages of 20 and 34 are conscripted into the militia and undergo military training, including weapons training", though they don't keep ammunition at home. In the 1990s, my European co-workers in the US, who were all of draft age during the Cold War, had been conscripted, including from Germany, Austria, Romania, Bulgaria - from both sides of the Iron Curtain. My Army wife and an Iranian ex-co-worker swapped stories about serving in the same part of the Middle East, just on opposite sides of the border. So plenty of Europeans have some experience in the military, at least for some countries. > In the Middle East these troops were frequently tasked with restoring order to urban areas exploding in internecine strife Now you're going on a tangent that seems little to do with pre-WWII farming culture. What sort of military training, and more importantly special forces operation experience, did your grandmother's family have, and how was it useful for their farm life?