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> Money is an artifact of the state; always has been, always will. This is patently false. Money has existed before states, and it has existed without states.

by ybx 11y ago

nickbauman 11y ago
There is almost no archeological evidence to support your claim. There is ample evidence supporting my claim. Money (specie: often in the form of coinage but not limited to such) was invented when a warlord or monarch captures riches (mines, cities), strikes coins with his visage, uses the coins to pay his soldiers (who are otherwise awful credit risks), then demands taxes from the free peasantry, creating a market economy in the process. States create markets. Markets require states. If for no other reason than to provide protection over the transaction with the threat of coercion. Before money existed, the free peasantry used credit. The historical evidence shows that first came credit, then came money, then came barter. The exact opposite of what Adam Smith and most economists believe.
- droffel 11y ago
  The historical evidence shows that first came credit, then came money, then came barter. Can I get a citation on this? Literally any citation that money came before barter will work.
  - nickbauman 11y ago
    David Graeber's Debt, The First 5000 years page 49-50. He has a bunch of citations in that manuscript which are fascinating as well.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - droffel 11y ago
      So I just read the pages you cited, and everything there is talking about recorded history. Barter has been in use since at least 12000BC, according to archaeological records. Your citation doesn't really refute my statement. (For anyone who wants to follow along, the PDF can be found at https://libcom.org/files/__Debt__The_First_5_000_Years.pdf https://libcom.org/files/__Debt__The_First_5_000_Years.pdf)
      - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
        > Barter has been in use since at least 12000BC The concept of debt predates the concept of barter a long time. Barter requires judging things of equal value. Debt however is easy to understand for humans regardless of ability to have the concept of possession (help me today and i help you tomorrow). I see no reason to believe that money or barter would become before debt in human development.
        droffel 11y ago
        I fully agree with you about debt/credit. If I give you something without getting anything in return, that can be considered debt. The point I'm specifically trying to come to grips with is the idea that money came before barter: considering that money is used as a token that is itself bartered for goods or services, I can't understand how money came before barter. It just doesn't make sense, using money is barter.
        the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
        > The point I'm specifically trying to come to grips with is the idea that money came before barter I had this discussion a few years ago and one thing that I found interesting as a thought is that barter is not something people like to do. It's generally only used if a token cannot be used because for instance the token is not stable in value. So in times of crisis people would fall back to barter as an alternative but when a stable token of exchange exists, barter does not play a role. The first thing that develops in a new community is debt and credit but with regards to if money or barter came first there does not seem to be a lot of agreement. I personally feel that barter is quite an unnatural concept because one party will most likely always lose. I cannot imagine that it would come naturally because it's a step back from debt and credit. The only thing it would give you is the ability to trade with someone you don't trust. And that is probably when you tribe meets another tribe which I feel is something that would happen after establishing a local currency.
    - nickbauman 11y ago
      It does refute it. What looked like barter on closer inspection was really credit. As in "I'll give you three chickens for that cow. I know this isn't a fair exchange but we'll mark the exchanges on this stick and later when I have something you want we'll sort it out." The stick was a record of the transaction. Sometimes the record itself was exchanged. This last step is how money emerged from credit.
      - droffel 11y ago
        I fully agree with you about debt/credit. If I give you something without getting anything in return, that can be considered debt. The point I'm specifically trying to come to grips with is the idea that money came before barter: considering that money is used as a token that is itself bartered for goods or services, I can't understand how money came before barter. It just doesn't make sense, using money is barter.
        pja 11y ago
        The idea isn’t that money came before barter - barter has always been around on the fringes of things. It’s that credit came before money & that credit tokens backed by a credible issuer turned out to be extremely useful as tokens of exchange & units of account. Hence it’s credit that evolves into money, not the things you might have bartered occasionally. Barter was for exchange with people you didn’t trust & didn’t have any kind of on-going relationship with & was therefore rare & fairly irrelevant economically. Anyone worth doing business with had some kind of credit relationship with your state anyway.
        nickbauman 11y ago
        I'll answer your question: barter came after money because the barter systems that emerged came after money and they marked to a currency to measure the barter transaction. IOW, they used a virtual currency. Even Charlemagne's empire defined a virtual currency that was used hundreds of years after the empire fell apart and Charlemagne never even ever struck coin but only left behind a specification of the HRE currency.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- swyman 11y ago
  Where can one read more about this?
  - natural219 11y ago
    "The Ascent of Money" by Niall Ferguson is my favorite introduction to the subject. It may or may not support parent's claims.
- deleted 11y ago
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- deleted 11y ago
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- CyberDildonics 11y ago
  Before credit was gold, which throws a wrench in your beliefs. I don't know if livestock domestication would be said to be a precursor to gold in some places.

> Money is an artifact of the state; always has been, always will. This is patently false. Money has existed before states, and it has existed without states.

by ybx 11y ago

> Money is an artifact of the state; always has been, always will. This is patently false. Money has existed before states, and it has existed without states.

nickbauman 11y ago

There is almost no archeological evidence to support your claim. There is ample evidence supporting my claim. Money (specie: often in the form of coinage but not limited to such) was invented when a warlord or monarch captures riches (mines, cities), strikes coins with his visage, uses the coins to pay his soldiers (who are otherwise awful credit risks), then demands taxes from the free peasantry, creating a market economy in the process. States create markets. Markets require states. If for no other reason than to provide protection over the transaction with the threat of coercion. Before money existed, the free peasantry used credit. The historical evidence shows that first came credit, then came money, then came barter. The exact opposite of what Adam Smith and most economists believe.

droffel 11y ago
The historical evidence shows that first came credit, then came money, then came barter. Can I get a citation on this? Literally any citation that money came before barter will work.
- nickbauman 11y ago
  David Graeber's Debt, The First 5000 years page 49-50. He has a bunch of citations in that manuscript which are fascinating as well.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - droffel 11y ago
    So I just read the pages you cited, and everything there is talking about recorded history. Barter has been in use since at least 12000BC, according to archaeological records. Your citation doesn't really refute my statement. (For anyone who wants to follow along, the PDF can be found at https://libcom.org/files/__Debt__The_First_5_000_Years.pdf https://libcom.org/files/__Debt__The_First_5_000_Years.pdf)
    - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
      > Barter has been in use since at least 12000BC The concept of debt predates the concept of barter a long time. Barter requires judging things of equal value. Debt however is easy to understand for humans regardless of ability to have the concept of possession (help me today and i help you tomorrow). I see no reason to believe that money or barter would become before debt in human development.
      - droffel 11y ago
        I fully agree with you about debt/credit. If I give you something without getting anything in return, that can be considered debt. The point I'm specifically trying to come to grips with is the idea that money came before barter: considering that money is used as a token that is itself bartered for goods or services, I can't understand how money came before barter. It just doesn't make sense, using money is barter.
        the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
        > The point I'm specifically trying to come to grips with is the idea that money came before barter I had this discussion a few years ago and one thing that I found interesting as a thought is that barter is not something people like to do. It's generally only used if a token cannot be used because for instance the token is not stable in value. So in times of crisis people would fall back to barter as an alternative but when a stable token of exchange exists, barter does not play a role. The first thing that develops in a new community is debt and credit but with regards to if money or barter came first there does not seem to be a lot of agreement. I personally feel that barter is quite an unnatural concept because one party will most likely always lose. I cannot imagine that it would come naturally because it's a step back from debt and credit. The only thing it would give you is the ability to trade with someone you don't trust. And that is probably when you tribe meets another tribe which I feel is something that would happen after establishing a local currency.
  - nickbauman 11y ago
    It does refute it. What looked like barter on closer inspection was really credit. As in "I'll give you three chickens for that cow. I know this isn't a fair exchange but we'll mark the exchanges on this stick and later when I have something you want we'll sort it out." The stick was a record of the transaction. Sometimes the record itself was exchanged. This last step is how money emerged from credit.
    - droffel 11y ago
      I fully agree with you about debt/credit. If I give you something without getting anything in return, that can be considered debt. The point I'm specifically trying to come to grips with is the idea that money came before barter: considering that money is used as a token that is itself bartered for goods or services, I can't understand how money came before barter. It just doesn't make sense, using money is barter.
      - pja 11y ago
        The idea isn’t that money came before barter - barter has always been around on the fringes of things. It’s that credit came before money & that credit tokens backed by a credible issuer turned out to be extremely useful as tokens of exchange & units of account. Hence it’s credit that evolves into money, not the things you might have bartered occasionally. Barter was for exchange with people you didn’t trust & didn’t have any kind of on-going relationship with & was therefore rare & fairly irrelevant economically. Anyone worth doing business with had some kind of credit relationship with your state anyway.
      - nickbauman 11y ago
        I'll answer your question: barter came after money because the barter systems that emerged came after money and they marked to a currency to measure the barter transaction. IOW, they used a virtual currency. Even Charlemagne's empire defined a virtual currency that was used hundreds of years after the empire fell apart and Charlemagne never even ever struck coin but only left behind a specification of the HRE currency.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
swyman 11y ago
Where can one read more about this?
- natural219 11y ago
  "The Ascent of Money" by Niall Ferguson is my favorite introduction to the subject. It may or may not support parent's claims.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
CyberDildonics 11y ago
Before credit was gold, which throws a wrench in your beliefs. I don't know if livestock domestication would be said to be a precursor to gold in some places.