4 ms·
>Money is an artifact of the state; always has been always will. Nothing can be further from the truth. You don't have to go too far for the example. Cigarette
by snitko 11y ago
>Money is an artifact of the state; always has been always will.
Nothing can be further from the truth. You don't have to go too far for the example. Cigarettes in prisons are used as money. People use all sorts of things as money. State wants to control it because it wants to collect some of the value produced by other people. That is all. Bitcoin is about not giving states these powers.
- hellbanner 11y agoPrisons exist because of the state. In most countries AFAIK it is illegal to mint your own "currency" and call it as such, hence artifact of the state. Bitcoin lets non-state actors create currency.. incidentally, those most equipped to fund the processing power, are state actors, hence artifact of the state.
- genghisjahn 11y ago7 Cities that have their own currency... http://mentalfloss.com/article/55414/7-cities-have-their-own-currencies http://mentalfloss.com/article/55414/7-cities-have-their-own... You can make your own currency all you want. You just can't make currency and pass it off as state sponsored currency without permission from the state.
- lingben 11y agoAlso the much beloved and hated Canadian Tire 'money': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Tire_money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Tire_money
- nickbauman 11y agoEver heard of a CityState?
- lingben 11y ago> Cigarettes in prisons are used as money. No. That's barter. Money has very specific characteristics. Cigarettes in prison fail these three: divisibility, durability and uniformity. https://www.stlouisfed.org/education/economic-lowdown-podcast-series/episode-9-functions-of-money https://www.stlouisfed.org/education/economic-lowdown-podcas...
- namenotrequired 11y agoThe article you link yourself makes clear that those are desired, "ideal" characteristics, not the definition as you suggest.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- dnautics 11y agoI always thought that money has three characteristics: fungibility, divisibility, and verifiability (although divisibility can be relaxed for small values). Cigarettes pass two of the three, and fail only the weakest one, in a fashion that doesn't matter.
- geomark 11y agoCigarettes have all those properties, just somewhat imperfectly. Cartons are divisble to packs which are divisible to individual cigarettes. Cigarettes are pretty durable - if you don't get them wet and avoid breaking them they have a reasonably long shelf life. And they are pretty uniform in each division - carton, pack, cigarette. Since prisons allow prisoners to smoke cigarettes they have the cover of utility while being used as money.
- rhino369 11y agoYou are of course correct. But Bitcoin is a fiat currency that exists without a state. That is rather (nearly) unprecedented. All other decentralized money had demand other than for its currency purposes. Cigs in jail are in demand so they became a way to store value. Bitcoin is the opposite. It has value because people are saying it's a currency. But it's monopoly money.
- pakled_engineer 11y agoSlightly offtopic but they use commissary food for currency in prisons as smoking was banned years ago. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB122290720439096481 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB122290720439096481 Mackerel was chosen since it's cost was closest to $1USD, and nobody wants to eat it. It also has unique markings so they can track down theft from each other.
- chippy 11y agoVery interesting! Mackerel would be worse than cigarettes as they are not divisible. It would also be a good source of Vitamin D if you were incarcerated in northern latitudes
- logfromblammo 11y agoThat's not strictly accurate. The lift-bros will eat it, as it is the cheapest source of protein. They are the ones that guarantee the marketability. If it were truly the case that no one wanted it, it could not be used as money, as another good would quickly replace it.
- pakled_engineer 11y agoDudes trying to get swole inside usually trade junk food for more prison chow and milk with other inmates who cant get commissary, also weight stacks were removed in most state and fed yards like California, so they fill laundry bags with water in their cells as makeshift weights when guards aren't around.
- nickbauman 11y agoI respond to this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10905733 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10905733