5 ms·

>maybe a few minutes to a few hours for your transaction to go through? Credit cards take 180 days for the transaction to confirm. Paypal is able to be clawed-

by grubles 11y ago

>maybe a few minutes to a few hours for your transaction to go through? Credit cards take 180 days for the transaction to confirm. Paypal is able to be clawed-back for up to almost the same amount of time. Cash can be counterfeited. Even some bank wires can be clawed back. Bitcoin works as a payment mechanism.

afreak 11y ago
> Credit cards take 180 days for the transaction to confirm. Paypal is able to be clawed-back for up to almost the same amount of time. Cash can be counterfeited. Even some bank wires can be clawed back. Bitcoin works as a payment mechanism. On average, an electronic transaction on your credit card will not be visible to the consumer for one or two days, depending on the merchant. This can be delayed if the merchant and all other parties are taking in a large volume of transactions, but it will show up. Other reasons include allowing for modifications to the transaction (such as merchants who wish to include tips which is a manual process), but if the transaction is electronic, it will appear visible to you within a day or two. With EMV being in place in the majority of the world and also ignoring some of its security problems, merchants don't have to be concerned about a fake credit card being used as much as they once had to. With Bitcoin, the merchant won't be able to tell if the transaction is approved without having to wait an onerous and unpredictable amount of time. If this is a restaurant, are we to expect that the person who's paying with Bitcoin will wait for the transaction to be received on the other end? Credit card transactions run in the realm of 100,000,000,000 transactions per year globally [1], or 274,000,000 per day, or 3,200 per second. At best as of this current writing, Bitcoin can handle anywhere between one to three transactions per second. A delay of one or two days of a transaction on my Visa card to show a meal I had a restaurant is acceptable considering the volume per day, but being that Bitcoin takes anywhere between a few minutes to a half-day to just process the transaction when it operates at <1% the speed is just pathetic. You cannot tell me with a straight face that compared to credit cards Bitcoin is able to scale and act as a "[workable] payment mechanism". [1] - http://www.paymentssource.com/statistics/ http://www.paymentssource.com/statistics/
- deleted 11y ago
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- grubles 11y ago
  >You're either clueless or lying here. Surely, before claiming I could be lying you at least googled credit card chargebacks? This is an example from Discover: "If you have found a charge you believe is incorrect, you may request billing assistance. You have 120 days from the date of the transaction to open a dispute online. For disputes older than 120 days, please contact 1-800-DISCOVER. Most transactions can be disputed once the charge posts to your account, however, please wait until your first monthly statement after the transaction to report a missing transaction." https://www.discover.com/credit-cards/help-center/statements/dispute-charge.html https://www.discover.com/credit-cards/help-center/statements...
  - afreak 11y ago
    This is what you said: > Credit cards take 180 days for the transaction to confirm. Now you're going on about chargebacks. Of course the window for a chargeback is going to have a lengthy period of time. Chargebacks involve a manual process where someone has to identify a payment that they wish to dispute. You're comparing apples and oranges here.
    - grubles 11y ago
      >Now you're going on about chargebacks. What is with the attitude you have? I wasn't going on about anything, really. You brought up transaction times which are related to confirmation times. Anything other than bitcoin is molasses-like.
      - afreak 11y ago
        > What is with the attitude you have? I wasn't going on about anything, really. You brought up transaction times which are related to confirmation times. Anything other than bitcoin is molasses-like. How is a credit card "molasses-like" when it is capable at this very moment you're reading this response of doing 1,000 times more than Bitcoin? In the time it took to load this page (100 ms), at least 300 credit card transactions have successfully gone through whereas this cryptocurrency nonsense hasn't even completed one.
mywittyname 11y ago
> Credit cards take 180 days for the transaction to confirm. I've worked on batch settlement software and never heard of this. The payment processor has very strict timelines that must be followed for each phase (auth, submission, clearing, settlement). Funds usually appear in bulk the next business day after settlement. > Cash can be counterfeited. And easily spotted (in the US). This is more an issue for people than retailers because the banks will almost certainly notice it. > Even some bank wires can be clawed back. This is really fucking hard and easily mitigated by immediately wiring the money to another account at a different bank.
- ikeboy 11y ago
  Credit card transactions can be charged back months later.
  - grubles 11y ago
    Absolutely. I wonder why you were downvoted for saying such.
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  - mywittyname 11y ago
    But that's formal process with input from three parties, not a unilateral decision made by the purchaser. Big difference.
    - ikeboy 11y ago
      The purchaser can only unilaterally reverse if 1: they opted in to that, in which case the recipient shouldn't accept a zero-conf and 2: it hasn't hit the blockchain yet. A credit card user can declare the card stolen within a day or two and all transactions will be cancelled. Sure, if the merchandise was shipped to his house or otherwise traceable to him, they might go after him legally, but you can go after a bitcoin user legally as well. You can't really fight a "card was stolen" fraud, except that eventually a credit card company will catch on and blacklist you.

by grubles 11y ago

afreak 11y ago

> Credit cards take 180 days for the transaction to confirm. Paypal is able to be clawed-back for up to almost the same amount of time. Cash can be counterfeited. Even some bank wires can be clawed back. Bitcoin works as a payment mechanism. On average, an electronic transaction on your credit card will not be visible to the consumer for one or two days, depending on the merchant. This can be delayed if the merchant and all other parties are taking in a large volume of transactions, but it will show up. Other reasons include allowing for modifications to the transaction (such as merchants who wish to include tips which is a manual process), but if the transaction is electronic, it will appear visible to you within a day or two. With EMV being in place in the majority of the world and also ignoring some of its security problems, merchants don't have to be concerned about a fake credit card being used as much as they once had to. With Bitcoin, the merchant won't be able to tell if the transaction is approved without having to wait an onerous and unpredictable amount of time. If this is a restaurant, are we to expect that the person who's paying with Bitcoin will wait for the transaction to be received on the other end? Credit card transactions run in the realm of 100,000,000,000 transactions per year globally [1], or 274,000,000 per day, or 3,200 per second. At best as of this current writing, Bitcoin can handle anywhere between one to three transactions per second. A delay of one or two days of a transaction on my Visa card to show a meal I had a restaurant is acceptable considering the volume per day, but being that Bitcoin takes anywhere between a few minutes to a half-day to just process the transaction when it operates at <1% the speed is just pathetic. You cannot tell me with a straight face that compared to credit cards Bitcoin is able to scale and act as a "[workable] payment mechanism". [1] - http://www.paymentssource.com/statistics/ http://www.paymentssource.com/statistics/

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grubles 11y ago
>You're either clueless or lying here. Surely, before claiming I could be lying you at least googled credit card chargebacks? This is an example from Discover: "If you have found a charge you believe is incorrect, you may request billing assistance. You have 120 days from the date of the transaction to open a dispute online. For disputes older than 120 days, please contact 1-800-DISCOVER. Most transactions can be disputed once the charge posts to your account, however, please wait until your first monthly statement after the transaction to report a missing transaction." https://www.discover.com/credit-cards/help-center/statements/dispute-charge.html https://www.discover.com/credit-cards/help-center/statements...
- afreak 11y ago
  This is what you said: > Credit cards take 180 days for the transaction to confirm. Now you're going on about chargebacks. Of course the window for a chargeback is going to have a lengthy period of time. Chargebacks involve a manual process where someone has to identify a payment that they wish to dispute. You're comparing apples and oranges here.
  - grubles 11y ago
    >Now you're going on about chargebacks. What is with the attitude you have? I wasn't going on about anything, really. You brought up transaction times which are related to confirmation times. Anything other than bitcoin is molasses-like.
    - afreak 11y ago
      > What is with the attitude you have? I wasn't going on about anything, really. You brought up transaction times which are related to confirmation times. Anything other than bitcoin is molasses-like. How is a credit card "molasses-like" when it is capable at this very moment you're reading this response of doing 1,000 times more than Bitcoin? In the time it took to load this page (100 ms), at least 300 credit card transactions have successfully gone through whereas this cryptocurrency nonsense hasn't even completed one.

mywittyname 11y ago

> Credit cards take 180 days for the transaction to confirm. I've worked on batch settlement software and never heard of this. The payment processor has very strict timelines that must be followed for each phase (auth, submission, clearing, settlement). Funds usually appear in bulk the next business day after settlement. > Cash can be counterfeited. And easily spotted (in the US). This is more an issue for people than retailers because the banks will almost certainly notice it. > Even some bank wires can be clawed back. This is really fucking hard and easily mitigated by immediately wiring the money to another account at a different bank.

ikeboy 11y ago
Credit card transactions can be charged back months later.
- grubles 11y ago
  Absolutely. I wonder why you were downvoted for saying such.
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- mywittyname 11y ago
  But that's formal process with input from three parties, not a unilateral decision made by the purchaser. Big difference.
  - ikeboy 11y ago
    The purchaser can only unilaterally reverse if 1: they opted in to that, in which case the recipient shouldn't accept a zero-conf and 2: it hasn't hit the blockchain yet. A credit card user can declare the card stolen within a day or two and all transactions will be cancelled. Sure, if the merchandise was shipped to his house or otherwise traceable to him, they might go after him legally, but you can go after a bitcoin user legally as well. You can't really fight a "card was stolen" fraud, except that eventually a credit card company will catch on and blacklist you.