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Harvard can't end racial discrimination in admissions. To get into Harvard, a teenager needs: 1) To know about Harvard and elite universities in general. Belie

Harvard can't end racial discrimination in admissions. To get into Harvard, a teenager needs: 1) To know about Harvard and elite universities in general. Believe it or not, research shows that most qualified poor kids don't apply because they don't have any knowledge about the value of an elite education or that places like Harvard exist. Anecodotally, I know a couple of brilliant ones from poor backgrounds who went to their state universities simply because they had no idea there were other options - in fact, it was an imaginative stretch to go to college at all. 2) Family and community support for a college education, much less an expensive elite one far away. Sure, some super-teen can overcome this, but it's a major reason kids don't apply or drop out at high rates. My two friends were constantly asked, why would you want to go to college? Kids in these situations are in alien environments at college (that it seems perfectly normal to white middle-class kids should tell you exactly what environment it is) where they have few people who can relate to them (Edit: and an institution not built for their needs), then they go home and are asked why they are wasting their time and family's money. And as they absorb university life, they also become alienated from people at home who don't have those life experiences or opportunities. 3) Money: There is a very strong relationship between family money and college education. 4) An excellent high school education: Something else that correlates strongly with the family they come from. 5) Connections: It's not what you know, but who you know. Do you think all those kids in Harvard are there on merit? What about the legacies? The big donors' kids? The kids with recommendations from alums? Those aren't avenues available to most kids. And all these things have a strong racial component. If Harvard can eliminate these factors then sure, why not eliminate affirmative action too?

Swizec 11y ago
> Family and community support for a college education, much less an expensive elite one far away. Sure, some super-teen can overcome this, but it's a major reason kids don't apply or drop out at high rates. My two friends were constantly asked, why would you want to go to college? Kids in these situations are in alien environments at college (that it seems perfectly normal to white middle-class kids should tell you exactly what environment it is) where they have few people who can relate to them, then they go home and are asked why they are wasting their time and family's money. And as they absorb university life, they also become alienated from people at home who don't have those life experiences or opportunities. This feels strangely familiar to me as a guy who moved from a tiny poor-ish European country to Silicon Valley in his late 20's. I know it's not the same, but holy shit, I never thought a random comment on a message board would peg me so well. At least in my case most of my back-home environment understands the why, even if they do question the rationality of it. But try to explain to the average Silicon Valley dweller that just ~6 years ago, a $5 purchase was a significant expense, and they have very little to relate to.
kevhsu 11y ago
There's also an explicit racial component to college admissions that I think plenty of us suspect does actually exist in the form of quotas, higher average scores/academic performance. That part can go pretty easily.
- hackuser 11y ago
  Do you mean the preference for white upper middle-class kids, or the affirmative action-like preferences?
  - igonvalue 11y ago
    Honest question. Have you read the article? > But they have tied the notion to another equally provocative question: Does Harvard shortchange Asian-American applicants in admissions?
  - kevhsu 11y ago
    I mean the preference for other races besides Asian when academic performance is held equal. Which I guess would fall under 'affirmative action.' The typical argument is that colleges want kids who are more 'well-rounded' and Asian kids are stereotyped to be less so.
    - hackuser 11y ago
      > The typical argument is that colleges want kids who are more 'well-rounded' and Asian kids are stereotyped to be less so. I didn't know any college used that argument. Certainly those kids should be judged on their own merits and not on stereotypes. > I mean the preference for other races besides Asian when academic performance is held equal. My point above, which I might not have explained well, is that racial preferences are unavoidable. Academic performance can't be held equal because the various applicants are competing on playing fields that can differ radically. (Also, as I point out at the end, Harvard admits students on many factors that aren't due to performance but due to the applicants' families' social networks and wealth.) The best Harvard can do is manage the situation to make it as fair as possible, which may include balancing the discrimination against some races with preferences in their favor. I can understand arguments either way but I don't think it's realistic to eliminate that component withhout looking at its affect on the whole system.
erikpukinskis 11y ago
Are you saying none of these problems could be solved by putting a team of professionals on it? For example, maybe six PR and marketing people working full time for four years couldn't make a dent in #1?
- Kalium 11y ago
  A team of six and four years and a pile of money is unlikely to stack up favorably against an entire life saying that Local U is as high as they can dream of. #2 empirically cannot be readily addressed by professionals. A number of schools have already adopted the approach you favor - a team of full-time professionals - and the problem persists.
- hackuser 11y ago
  > Are you saying none of these problems could be solved by putting a team of professionals on it? For example, maybe six PR and marketing people working full time for four years couldn't make a dent in #1? The elite colleges say anyone who gets in will be given affordable tuition, but they must have long known that their applicants come from specific socio-economic groups and therefore they are missing top applicants outside those groups. Why haven't they done much about it? (I can only guess.) Note that it must weaken their student body to miss so many top students. Issue #1 has received a bunch of broader public attention recently (NY Times articles, etc.), so perhaps that has energized a response; I don't follow it closely enough to know. I also know that solving #1 without solving #2 results only in a lot of dropouts. I happen to know someone at a good university that mentors a group of students from other backgrounds; the university has developed a detailed program to try to keep them in school. Finally, I have read that Amherst, many years ago, decided that they would actually make an effort to admit a socio-economically (or maybe just economically; I don't know the details) diverse student body, with great success. That is true public service by an institution.

Swizec 11y ago

> Family and community support for a college education, much less an expensive elite one far away. Sure, some super-teen can overcome this, but it's a major reason kids don't apply or drop out at high rates. My two friends were constantly asked, why would you want to go to college? Kids in these situations are in alien environments at college (that it seems perfectly normal to white middle-class kids should tell you exactly what environment it is) where they have few people who can relate to them, then they go home and are asked why they are wasting their time and family's money. And as they absorb university life, they also become alienated from people at home who don't have those life experiences or opportunities. This feels strangely familiar to me as a guy who moved from a tiny poor-ish European country to Silicon Valley in his late 20's. I know it's not the same, but holy shit, I never thought a random comment on a message board would peg me so well. At least in my case most of my back-home environment understands the why, even if they do question the rationality of it. But try to explain to the average Silicon Valley dweller that just ~6 years ago, a $5 purchase was a significant expense, and they have very little to relate to.

kevhsu 11y ago

There's also an explicit racial component to college admissions that I think plenty of us suspect does actually exist in the form of quotas, higher average scores/academic performance. That part can go pretty easily.

hackuser 11y ago
Do you mean the preference for white upper middle-class kids, or the affirmative action-like preferences?
- igonvalue 11y ago
  Honest question. Have you read the article? > But they have tied the notion to another equally provocative question: Does Harvard shortchange Asian-American applicants in admissions?
- kevhsu 11y ago
  I mean the preference for other races besides Asian when academic performance is held equal. Which I guess would fall under 'affirmative action.' The typical argument is that colleges want kids who are more 'well-rounded' and Asian kids are stereotyped to be less so.
  - hackuser 11y ago
    > The typical argument is that colleges want kids who are more 'well-rounded' and Asian kids are stereotyped to be less so. I didn't know any college used that argument. Certainly those kids should be judged on their own merits and not on stereotypes. > I mean the preference for other races besides Asian when academic performance is held equal. My point above, which I might not have explained well, is that racial preferences are unavoidable. Academic performance can't be held equal because the various applicants are competing on playing fields that can differ radically. (Also, as I point out at the end, Harvard admits students on many factors that aren't due to performance but due to the applicants' families' social networks and wealth.) The best Harvard can do is manage the situation to make it as fair as possible, which may include balancing the discrimination against some races with preferences in their favor. I can understand arguments either way but I don't think it's realistic to eliminate that component withhout looking at its affect on the whole system.

erikpukinskis 11y ago

Are you saying none of these problems could be solved by putting a team of professionals on it? For example, maybe six PR and marketing people working full time for four years couldn't make a dent in #1?

Kalium 11y ago
A team of six and four years and a pile of money is unlikely to stack up favorably against an entire life saying that Local U is as high as they can dream of. #2 empirically cannot be readily addressed by professionals. A number of schools have already adopted the approach you favor - a team of full-time professionals - and the problem persists.
hackuser 11y ago
> Are you saying none of these problems could be solved by putting a team of professionals on it? For example, maybe six PR and marketing people working full time for four years couldn't make a dent in #1? The elite colleges say anyone who gets in will be given affordable tuition, but they must have long known that their applicants come from specific socio-economic groups and therefore they are missing top applicants outside those groups. Why haven't they done much about it? (I can only guess.) Note that it must weaken their student body to miss so many top students. Issue #1 has received a bunch of broader public attention recently (NY Times articles, etc.), so perhaps that has energized a response; I don't follow it closely enough to know. I also know that solving #1 without solving #2 results only in a lot of dropouts. I happen to know someone at a good university that mentors a group of students from other backgrounds; the university has developed a detailed program to try to keep them in school. Finally, I have read that Amherst, many years ago, decided that they would actually make an effort to admit a socio-economically (or maybe just economically; I don't know the details) diverse student body, with great success. That is true public service by an institution.