5 ms·

Or perhaps they are probing the fact I had to change my window regulators EIGHT TIMES on my previous car (Scenic), while the vigorously defended that 1) it was

Or perhaps they are probing the fact I had to change my window regulators EIGHT TIMES on my previous car (Scenic), while the vigorously defended that 1) it was not a design fault and 2) refused to make the repair at their own costs. And despite hundred of pages of online forum discussion about this particular problem. And, mind you, it's not just them, I think the auto-industry needs to be kicked, hard, and repeatedly until they start behaving with a notch more honesty.

S_A_P 11y ago
The thing is, it may not be a design fault, but an improperly built part from a supplier that botched it with cost cutting measures. The production samples Renault received were probably glorious and will work for centuries, only to have the production run substitute a cheaper material that is "functionally equivalent".
- tsunamifury 11y ago
  Thats a design fault.
- nicolasp 11y ago
  Even so, it should still be their responsibility. They're the ones selling the finished product to the consumer.
  - S_A_P 11y ago
    I dont disagree. To me its a game of blame passing, but I think that is the reality of the car biz. Brands usually design the look and most of the time the engine. Suppliers do the rest.
ju-st 11y ago
> And despite hundred of pages of online forum discussion about this particular problem. The problem hasn't existed yet when you bought the car?
- exhilaration 11y ago
  If you don't know what search terms to put into Google, you'll never know it's a common problem until after it happens to you. For example, we didn't know that, until a few years ago, Subarus were prone to cracked head gaskets. We only learned that after it happened to us and the mechanic told us it was very common. Armed with new search terms, Google confirmed what the mechanic said.
  - SixSigma 11y ago
    According to warranty Direct's customer base of 50,000k+ policies 42% of Forester's are returned for engine problems [1] 28% of Subaru Legacy's too [2] For both models it is the most frequent category of failure The legacy is still no.86 in the reliability stakes though [3] [1] http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/236 http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/236 [2] http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/238 http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/238 [3] http://www.reliabilityindex.com/top-100 http://www.reliabilityindex.com/top-100
perfunctory 11y ago
> I think the auto-industry needs to be kicked what specifically do you propose? I am genuinely interested. Who should do what?
- silon7 11y ago
  Disband all corporations > 1000 people.
  - ethbro 11y ago
    Don't know why you're getting downvotes without comments. It's as valid an opinion as any, especially given the leverage you can wield with 1,000 employees these days. I don't think anyone would argue that there isn't a certain size of corporation over which there are more disadvantages than advantages (to society at least).
- marincounty 11y ago
  This won't be popular, but since I could drive (15 1/2), what has bothered me about the auto industry is the average customer. I have never got my head around people who buy these vechicles filled with gadgets, and expect these gadgets to last for more than a few seasons. (I know this is offtopic, and the discussion is about emmissions and cheaters, but if customers realized just how hard it is to get these sporty vechicles to run terrific at all times right--while being essentially choked by a plethora of smog devices. Well they might not be so picky.) I've sold cars. I've worked as a mechanic. I'm not going to spout off a lot of advice, but there's some things I feel should be said: 1. If buying used, forget about that "I need to bring my mechanic by, before I buy." That's used car lot advice. Not private sale advice. Bring cash if you wanted good deal. The better cars evaporate pretty quick. 2. Forget about all the gadgets. Roll up your own windows. A good heater on a used car is nothing more than an engine that's running hot, or the thermostat is missing or stuck. Look for vechicles that are built well. A used Toyota is a safe bet. 3. Early on learn a little about auto mechanics. Over a lifetime, you will be suprised how much you save. With today's three propriariary, computer cars--well it's more difficult, but then again, you have the Internet. 4. When buying a vechicle research the drivetrain, and engine. Is the drivetrain time tested? Is the engine reliable? 5. Forget about color, sear heaters, all the gadgets. They just Break down. My father's quote on electric Windows, "The day I can't roll down my own windows--take me out of my misery." My father was old school though. He always had an older vechicle, with enough modifications to outrun the State police--if needed. A Mickey's beer between his leg, and a lit Carleton in his lips. Car security was a kill switch running between the secondary wire on the distributer, and a switch in the cab, and a claw hammer behind the seat. Times were definetly different back then.
xlayn 11y ago
It's not particular to the car industry, you can see it everywhere, from 3M making every American and possibly every living thing more propense to cancer [0] to Unilever dropping tons of mercury on the forests of India[1] to IBM taking every position they can to India because it's cheaper[2]. The reason is: if this reflects on "making more money" they will do it and fight to make it look right until they are challenge on court, as a result probably the fines will be lower than the earnings related to how they did it. Edit: there is nothing wrong with moving positions to a another country. [0]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/25/AR2006012502041.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01... [0]http://www.aboutlawsuits.com/link-dupont-teflon-cancer-26060/ http://www.aboutlawsuits.com/link-dupont-teflon-cancer-26060... [0]http://www.delawareriverkeeper.org/resources/Factsheets/A_DUPONT_LEGACY_PFOA_Pollution.pdf http://www.delawareriverkeeper.org/resources/Factsheets/A_DU... [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodaikanal_mercury_poisoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodaikanal_mercury_poisoning [2]http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123799610031239341 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123799610031239341
- jowiar 11y ago
  This isn't going to get fixed as long as the individuals at the top still become multimillionaires/billionaires even if the companies in question go kaput. The penalties for doing this need to be: (1) Confiscation of individual wealth, and (2) Prison
  - fweespeech 11y ago
    That isn't the answer. Many of the people who you'd target don't have the kind of control needed to actually "fix" it. Its generally a cultural problem with the company and the company is the target that should be destroyed in the extreme case where (2) would be appropriate [which nukes the wealth of the shareholders].
    - jowiar 11y ago
      But the cultural problem comes from somewhere. And if we're going to reward those who "succeed" with unimaginable riches, the penalties for failing at that scale need to be equally harsh. Alternatively, we realize this, and thus implement a tax structure such that we have no more billionaires.

S_A_P 11y ago

The thing is, it may not be a design fault, but an improperly built part from a supplier that botched it with cost cutting measures. The production samples Renault received were probably glorious and will work for centuries, only to have the production run substitute a cheaper material that is "functionally equivalent".

tsunamifury 11y ago
Thats a design fault.
nicolasp 11y ago
Even so, it should still be their responsibility. They're the ones selling the finished product to the consumer.
- S_A_P 11y ago
  I dont disagree. To me its a game of blame passing, but I think that is the reality of the car biz. Brands usually design the look and most of the time the engine. Suppliers do the rest.

ju-st 11y ago

> And despite hundred of pages of online forum discussion about this particular problem. The problem hasn't existed yet when you bought the car?

exhilaration 11y ago
If you don't know what search terms to put into Google, you'll never know it's a common problem until after it happens to you. For example, we didn't know that, until a few years ago, Subarus were prone to cracked head gaskets. We only learned that after it happened to us and the mechanic told us it was very common. Armed with new search terms, Google confirmed what the mechanic said.
- SixSigma 11y ago
  According to warranty Direct's customer base of 50,000k+ policies 42% of Forester's are returned for engine problems [1] 28% of Subaru Legacy's too [2] For both models it is the most frequent category of failure The legacy is still no.86 in the reliability stakes though [3] [1] http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/236 http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/236 [2] http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/238 http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/238 [3] http://www.reliabilityindex.com/top-100 http://www.reliabilityindex.com/top-100

perfunctory 11y ago

> I think the auto-industry needs to be kicked what specifically do you propose? I am genuinely interested. Who should do what?

silon7 11y ago
Disband all corporations > 1000 people.
- ethbro 11y ago
  Don't know why you're getting downvotes without comments. It's as valid an opinion as any, especially given the leverage you can wield with 1,000 employees these days. I don't think anyone would argue that there isn't a certain size of corporation over which there are more disadvantages than advantages (to society at least).
marincounty 11y ago
This won't be popular, but since I could drive (15 1/2), what has bothered me about the auto industry is the average customer. I have never got my head around people who buy these vechicles filled with gadgets, and expect these gadgets to last for more than a few seasons. (I know this is offtopic, and the discussion is about emmissions and cheaters, but if customers realized just how hard it is to get these sporty vechicles to run terrific at all times right--while being essentially choked by a plethora of smog devices. Well they might not be so picky.) I've sold cars. I've worked as a mechanic. I'm not going to spout off a lot of advice, but there's some things I feel should be said: 1. If buying used, forget about that "I need to bring my mechanic by, before I buy." That's used car lot advice. Not private sale advice. Bring cash if you wanted good deal. The better cars evaporate pretty quick. 2. Forget about all the gadgets. Roll up your own windows. A good heater on a used car is nothing more than an engine that's running hot, or the thermostat is missing or stuck. Look for vechicles that are built well. A used Toyota is a safe bet. 3. Early on learn a little about auto mechanics. Over a lifetime, you will be suprised how much you save. With today's three propriariary, computer cars--well it's more difficult, but then again, you have the Internet. 4. When buying a vechicle research the drivetrain, and engine. Is the drivetrain time tested? Is the engine reliable? 5. Forget about color, sear heaters, all the gadgets. They just Break down. My father's quote on electric Windows, "The day I can't roll down my own windows--take me out of my misery." My father was old school though. He always had an older vechicle, with enough modifications to outrun the State police--if needed. A Mickey's beer between his leg, and a lit Carleton in his lips. Car security was a kill switch running between the secondary wire on the distributer, and a switch in the cab, and a claw hammer behind the seat. Times were definetly different back then.

xlayn 11y ago

It's not particular to the car industry, you can see it everywhere, from 3M making every American and possibly every living thing more propense to cancer [0] to Unilever dropping tons of mercury on the forests of India[1] to IBM taking every position they can to India because it's cheaper[2]. The reason is: if this reflects on "making more money" they will do it and fight to make it look right until they are challenge on court, as a result probably the fines will be lower than the earnings related to how they did it. Edit: there is nothing wrong with moving positions to a another country. [0]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/25/AR2006012502041.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01... [0]http://www.aboutlawsuits.com/link-dupont-teflon-cancer-26060/ http://www.aboutlawsuits.com/link-dupont-teflon-cancer-26060... [0]http://www.delawareriverkeeper.org/resources/Factsheets/A_DUPONT_LEGACY_PFOA_Pollution.pdf http://www.delawareriverkeeper.org/resources/Factsheets/A_DU... [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodaikanal_mercury_poisoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodaikanal_mercury_poisoning [2]http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123799610031239341 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123799610031239341

jowiar 11y ago
This isn't going to get fixed as long as the individuals at the top still become multimillionaires/billionaires even if the companies in question go kaput. The penalties for doing this need to be: (1) Confiscation of individual wealth, and (2) Prison
- fweespeech 11y ago
  That isn't the answer. Many of the people who you'd target don't have the kind of control needed to actually "fix" it. Its generally a cultural problem with the company and the company is the target that should be destroyed in the extreme case where (2) would be appropriate [which nukes the wealth of the shareholders].
  - jowiar 11y ago
    But the cultural problem comes from somewhere. And if we're going to reward those who "succeed" with unimaginable riches, the penalties for failing at that scale need to be equally harsh. Alternatively, we realize this, and thus implement a tax structure such that we have no more billionaires.