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Man, I agree with you. This kind of reasoning is bizarre, how could you possibly know the strategies of the other players? And yet it's right. Read the first se
by cousin_it 11y ago
Man, I agree with you. This kind of reasoning is bizarre, how could you possibly know the strategies of the other players? And yet it's right. Read the first sentence of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium, which is brilliant in its simplicity:
> In game theory, the Nash equilibrium is a solution concept of a non-cooperative game involving two or more players, in which each player is assumed to know the equilibrium strategies of the other players, and no player has anything to gain by changing only their own strategy.
Many people have tried to define mathematically what "rational behavior" means when there are multiple players. Nash equilibrium is the one idea that stayed. It's the first chapter of every game theory textbook. Since the 1950s, literally all publications about non-cooperative games have been based on Nash equilibrium. To understand why, you'd have to look at the history of the field, or you could take my word for it. If it's any consolation, it was very unintuitive for me at first, too.
- sago 11y agoOh don't get me wrong, my objection is not because I don't understand Nash Equilibria (my PhD was in evolutionary dynamics, so it's been a while, and I was never a game theoretician, but I'm not totally ignorant of the field). My problem is that the mathematical tools you are name checking don't apply in this case. Even your quote itself says 'changing ... strategy', and goes on: "If each player has chosen a strategy and no player can benefit by changing strategies while the other players keep theirs unchanged..." which is not the situation in this case. Strategies for infinite games are not necessarily optimal if the game is finite, and vice versa.
- cousin_it 11y agoI'm sorry, now I don't follow. If not subgame-perfect equilibrium, what do you think is the right solution concept for the pirate game? Maybe it doesn't have a name, but can you describe it (at least informally)?
- kmonad 11y agoCan you explain a little more how this subgame-perfect equilibrium should be reached? From the game's description it appears that, all other things equal, I as a pirate reject a proposed coin distribution if I could kill the proposer. Thus, if offered 0 coins, I would always choose to reject that plan.
- cousin_it 11y agoWell, one pirate changing their vote to "no" wouldn't actually kill anyone. So it sounds like you want a utility function over outcomes (prefer outcomes where someone is killed) and another, separate utility function over actions (prefer voting to kill someone even if that won't actually kill them). That's a pretty unusual setup, because game theory usually just gives you a utility function over outcomes and lets you derive strategic behavior from that, without fiddling with individual actions. Though I guess most people solving the problem have tried to merge the two utility functions somehow? That's probably the root of the disagreement in this thread...
- kmonad 11y agoYou keep saying "change their vote to no". Perhaps it would be educational why you think they should default to "yes" in the first place when offered 0 coins. It really doesn't seem that the problem you see necessarily arises from this specific set of rules for this game. Offered 0 --> vote no; no would at worst be equal and at best be better than yes.
- lmm 11y agoThe point is that everyone voting yes is a possible equilibrium solution (along with the "normal" solution), so a priori there's no rule that tells you which one is the equilibrium the pirates would reach.
- sago 11y agoNo, the point being made is there is no 'equilibrium' because the game is not repeated. Equilibrium meaning 'if everyone votes this way, there is no benefit for any individual to vote differently' - that doesn't apply when the pirates are trying to determine what to vote for the one and only time they'll ever vote on this question, not knowing what anyone else will be voting.