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One thing that's really uplifting is to see the giant tidal wave of uptake in electric drive platforms. I really don't think you'd see this without Tesla reall

One thing that's really uplifting is to see the giant tidal wave of uptake in electric drive platforms. I really don't think you'd see this without Tesla really setting the bar with the Model S. Now we're seeing GM, Ford, BMW, VW and many other auto companies making serious commitments.

rorykoehler 11y ago
I want to see a company release a cheap framework for an electric car that anyone can build on top of. Just the chassis and battery pack maybe with in-wheel motors. Then people could design and print their own cabs. I saw the documentary by BMW on making the i8 and while their technical knowledge/competency is impressive at this stage it seems they are way over-engineering when a simple solution would suffice.
- marincounty 11y ago
  I think there's a huge market for exactly what you described. Would I buy a electric car now--no. Do I feel they are over engineered, like too many new internal combustion vechicles--yes. That said, when electric cars start showing up in the secondary markets, I'll probally buy one. I'll buy it to modify, and turn it into something I can drive on the cheap. That's if I can get into their proprietary computers, or bypass all together, and government doesn't get too involved with regulations? By regulations, I mean right now in most states, the government is pretty lenient with collector cars. In CA, you can do a lot to a vechicle made before 1973. Guys of all income groups are into their older cars. I hope it stays this way. As to smog, global warming--I just don't think a lot of these older cars are on the road enough to make a huge difference. A modified electric car is something I would buy, or get excited about. I'm kinda looking for a used Prius that needs a new engine right now. I got excited about a used Prius when I heard the motors are so well engineered--they are outlasting the vechicles. Guys aren't rebuilding these engines. They are buying them whole from the junk yard for low prices.
- jackcosgrove 11y ago
  The auto industry has an Apple product model (keep design in house and release very well-finished products) as opposed to a PC model (build a platform for both hardware and software that others can design, build, mix, and match for). Sure there are Delphis and other suppliers, but they build nuts and bolts while the drive train, chassis, and body have remained the domain of the auto companies. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm very interested in the production of standard drivetrains and chassis, analogous to processors and motherboards, that hobbyists and customizers can build upon.
  - rorykoehler 11y ago
    I'm thinking more of an enabler for Michael Dell type entrepreneurs. With the democratization of design/manufacturing tools, a framework as I have described, will allow smaller players/designers express their vision. While I agree that the auto industry is very closed, I feel that the playing with the interior of a car allows for more creativity than the interior of a pc or phone, especially when there is no need to design for a driver.
    - tjl 11y ago
      There was something similar to this when cars first came out. You'd buy the engine and the frame and hire a coach building company to build the body and the interior.
  - vlehto 11y ago
    There are some "standards" like Ford Escort turned out to be in rally circles. But there is no Socket 7 of cars.
- TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
  There are thousands of small parts in a car cab, made of a variety of materials (assorted alloys, glass, various plastics, composites, fabrics, rubber, electronic components...), and an unfeasibly large amount of wiring, some of which has to be thick enough to carry large currents. Even if you strip everything down to bare essentials, you still need hundreds of parts in various materials. (Toyota, Peugeot and Citroen already do engine/chassis sharing on a couple of budget car lines.) Current technology can't print a safe car windscreen, never mind a complete cab with safe crumple zones. Car building is primarily a logistics, supply chain, and assembly problem, not a design problem. I don't think a self-printed car solution will happen this side of 2030 - if ever - and it will probably need nano-assembly to be viable.
  - vlehto 11y ago
    You are kind of conflicting yourself in your argument against modularization, by noting that different manufacturers already share major sub-assembly. The electric systems have been going towards bus-like approach with microcontrollers. Which should again provide easy enough sub-assembly to be installed afterwards. This is demonstrated by the fact that they are sometimes outsourced. But about 3D printing I agree. You can print paneling to your taste, but that's about it. But then again all custom production is getting more and more accessible to end customer. You can order custom water jet cut sheet metal at your door these days. Maybe something like this could happen: Order chassis and engine from BMW. Print side panels with CAD files you ordered from some Korean designer. Order hood from Jaguar and interior from Versace. Final assembly is done by "chop shop" who prints and orders all the necessary parts to connect the stuff you ordered.
    - sjwright 11y ago
      And you end up with a vehicle with extremely dubious crash safety, no warranty worth speaking of, insurance companies won't touch it, and the resale value will be abysmal. Have at it!
      - vlehto 11y ago
        My bike has parts from several different companies. It has separate warranty for every part, insurance company doesn't mind anything and resale value doesn't differ from package deal. What's so different? In the example all assemblies affecting crash safety would come from respectable auto manufacturers, so I don't see the problem.
- Animats 11y ago
  The body holds the car together in most lighter cars. This is called "monocoque construction". You can't just add the body. Body-on-frame construction is used for trucks and some larger cars, but there's a weight penalty. The trouble with in-wheel motors: unsprung weight. Works great for big, slow vehicles like mining trucks. For smaller vehicles, the motor weight has to come way down. There's been some progress in this.
  - ChickeNES 11y ago
    I think you mean "unibody": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_frame#Unibody https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_frame#Unibody Also, with the discontinuation of the Ford Panther platform (Crown Vic/Grand Marquis/Towncar) there are no longer any passenger cars manufactured using Body-on-frame, only SUVs and trucks.
    - Animats 11y ago
      That depends on whether you consider a Jeep Wrangler to be a car or a truck.
- HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
  I'm really puzzled by this. I remember about 10 years ago GM (I think) was making a big deal about their electric platform that was going to be the base of a whole slew of electric vehicles. It sounded like a good concept at the time. But now? Crickets... Correcting myself: it was a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle and more than 10 years ago, but still an interesting concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_Hy-wire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_Hy-wire
massysett 11y ago
Uplifting why? Is there any evidence that electric cars are better than gasoline ones--environmentally or in any other way?

rorykoehler 11y ago

I want to see a company release a cheap framework for an electric car that anyone can build on top of. Just the chassis and battery pack maybe with in-wheel motors. Then people could design and print their own cabs. I saw the documentary by BMW on making the i8 and while their technical knowledge/competency is impressive at this stage it seems they are way over-engineering when a simple solution would suffice.

marincounty 11y ago
I think there's a huge market for exactly what you described. Would I buy a electric car now--no. Do I feel they are over engineered, like too many new internal combustion vechicles--yes. That said, when electric cars start showing up in the secondary markets, I'll probally buy one. I'll buy it to modify, and turn it into something I can drive on the cheap. That's if I can get into their proprietary computers, or bypass all together, and government doesn't get too involved with regulations? By regulations, I mean right now in most states, the government is pretty lenient with collector cars. In CA, you can do a lot to a vechicle made before 1973. Guys of all income groups are into their older cars. I hope it stays this way. As to smog, global warming--I just don't think a lot of these older cars are on the road enough to make a huge difference. A modified electric car is something I would buy, or get excited about. I'm kinda looking for a used Prius that needs a new engine right now. I got excited about a used Prius when I heard the motors are so well engineered--they are outlasting the vechicles. Guys aren't rebuilding these engines. They are buying them whole from the junk yard for low prices.
jackcosgrove 11y ago
The auto industry has an Apple product model (keep design in house and release very well-finished products) as opposed to a PC model (build a platform for both hardware and software that others can design, build, mix, and match for). Sure there are Delphis and other suppliers, but they build nuts and bolts while the drive train, chassis, and body have remained the domain of the auto companies. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm very interested in the production of standard drivetrains and chassis, analogous to processors and motherboards, that hobbyists and customizers can build upon.
- rorykoehler 11y ago
  I'm thinking more of an enabler for Michael Dell type entrepreneurs. With the democratization of design/manufacturing tools, a framework as I have described, will allow smaller players/designers express their vision. While I agree that the auto industry is very closed, I feel that the playing with the interior of a car allows for more creativity than the interior of a pc or phone, especially when there is no need to design for a driver.
  - tjl 11y ago
    There was something similar to this when cars first came out. You'd buy the engine and the frame and hire a coach building company to build the body and the interior.
- vlehto 11y ago
  There are some "standards" like Ford Escort turned out to be in rally circles. But there is no Socket 7 of cars.
TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
There are thousands of small parts in a car cab, made of a variety of materials (assorted alloys, glass, various plastics, composites, fabrics, rubber, electronic components...), and an unfeasibly large amount of wiring, some of which has to be thick enough to carry large currents. Even if you strip everything down to bare essentials, you still need hundreds of parts in various materials. (Toyota, Peugeot and Citroen already do engine/chassis sharing on a couple of budget car lines.) Current technology can't print a safe car windscreen, never mind a complete cab with safe crumple zones. Car building is primarily a logistics, supply chain, and assembly problem, not a design problem. I don't think a self-printed car solution will happen this side of 2030 - if ever - and it will probably need nano-assembly to be viable.
- vlehto 11y ago
  You are kind of conflicting yourself in your argument against modularization, by noting that different manufacturers already share major sub-assembly. The electric systems have been going towards bus-like approach with microcontrollers. Which should again provide easy enough sub-assembly to be installed afterwards. This is demonstrated by the fact that they are sometimes outsourced. But about 3D printing I agree. You can print paneling to your taste, but that's about it. But then again all custom production is getting more and more accessible to end customer. You can order custom water jet cut sheet metal at your door these days. Maybe something like this could happen: Order chassis and engine from BMW. Print side panels with CAD files you ordered from some Korean designer. Order hood from Jaguar and interior from Versace. Final assembly is done by "chop shop" who prints and orders all the necessary parts to connect the stuff you ordered.
  - sjwright 11y ago
    And you end up with a vehicle with extremely dubious crash safety, no warranty worth speaking of, insurance companies won't touch it, and the resale value will be abysmal. Have at it!
    - vlehto 11y ago
      My bike has parts from several different companies. It has separate warranty for every part, insurance company doesn't mind anything and resale value doesn't differ from package deal. What's so different? In the example all assemblies affecting crash safety would come from respectable auto manufacturers, so I don't see the problem.
Animats 11y ago
The body holds the car together in most lighter cars. This is called "monocoque construction". You can't just add the body. Body-on-frame construction is used for trucks and some larger cars, but there's a weight penalty. The trouble with in-wheel motors: unsprung weight. Works great for big, slow vehicles like mining trucks. For smaller vehicles, the motor weight has to come way down. There's been some progress in this.
- ChickeNES 11y ago
  I think you mean "unibody": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_frame#Unibody https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_frame#Unibody Also, with the discontinuation of the Ford Panther platform (Crown Vic/Grand Marquis/Towncar) there are no longer any passenger cars manufactured using Body-on-frame, only SUVs and trucks.
  - Animats 11y ago
    That depends on whether you consider a Jeep Wrangler to be a car or a truck.
HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
I'm really puzzled by this. I remember about 10 years ago GM (I think) was making a big deal about their electric platform that was going to be the base of a whole slew of electric vehicles. It sounded like a good concept at the time. But now? Crickets... Correcting myself: it was a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle and more than 10 years ago, but still an interesting concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_Hy-wire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_Hy-wire

massysett 11y ago

Uplifting why? Is there any evidence that electric cars are better than gasoline ones--environmentally or in any other way?