6 ms·

> Why in the world would anyone use Perl 6? Well... it's the little things. The issue is, why would anyone want to move from Ruby/Python/Js to Perl in 2016...

by aikah 11y ago

> Why in the world would anyone use Perl 6? Well... it's the little things. The issue is, why would anyone want to move from Ruby/Python/Js to Perl in 2016... Obviously most Perl users understand the benefits of Perl 6.

krylon 11y ago
OTOH, Perl6 is effectively a new language. So knowing Perl5 is not that big an advantage. I get that learning Perl is not a very attractive proposition these days, and Perl6 currently does not have the vast library/framework ecosystem Perl5 has. But I think Perl6 is not just for Perl5 programmers. In fact, I think a lot of Perl5 people are going to stick with Perl5 for a while due to a) libraries/frameworks and b) existing code that needs to be maintained.
signa11 11y ago
> The issue is, why would anyone want to move from Ruby/Python/Js to Perl in 2016... actually not quite. given the plethora of libraries/frameworks etc. for perl-5, why would perl-5 programmers move to perl-6 ?
- hahainternet 11y ago
  > actually not quite. given the plethora of libraries/frameworks etc. for perl-5, why would perl-5 programmers move to perl-6 ? I'm a Perl 5 programmer. Perl 6 is a more perly Perl. I can use my Perl 5 modules if I really want, but I can write better specified, safer and more logical code. Just having simple functions like 'whenever' makes developing fun and easy. Please see http://jnthn.net/papers/2015-yapcasia-concurrency.pdf http://jnthn.net/papers/2015-yapcasia-concurrency.pdf for context
- brudgers 11y ago
  My intuition is that current users of Perl 5 probably fall largely into two camps: using it because it looks like the best tool for the job or using it because it is the language of their soul. People in the first group would switch if Perl6 looks like a better tool. Short of revelation the second group won't. Hardcore Perl programmers have had a long time to think about Perl 6 and come to their conclusions. It's not a community where evangelism is likely to make a difference these days. I don't think the Perl community is like the Python community for cultural reasons that stem from their histories.
  - gaius 11y ago
    Perl 5's killer app is CPAN. It will be a looooong time before Perl 6 can compete.
    - awwaiid 11y ago
      I'm contributing toward language integration bindings, hoping to make it convenient and socially acceptable to call out to Perl 5, Python, Ruby, ... so that we will have (a subset of) CPAN, pypy, Rubygems, and so on. You can do this from any language really -- it is just binding to the c lib of the guest language. It kinda makes me sad that the instinct for most of these things is to port a lib from language to language to language... when does it end?! I never want anyone to write pyplot again -- let's just call pyplot from ALL the languages thanks to the magic that is a little c library called libpython.
    - kbenson 11y ago
      You seem to be under the impression that Perl 6 can't use Perl 5 CPAN modules. https://github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5 https://github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5
      - gaius 11y ago
        What advantage does running Perl 5 code in the Perl 6 runtime give you? Is it enough to warrant switching?
        kbenson 11y ago
        Depending on how you look at it, the advantage is either all of the Perl 5 ecosystem plus whatever Perl 6 brings to the table, or the lack of a disadvantage through not having a large module ecosystem, depending on how charitable you want to be. Not to mention, you also have Inline::Python[1], and conceivably any other runtimes they want to embed. I think it would be interesting to see what you get by taking the best of class in each ecosystem and using them. It may or may not scale well due to data marshalling, but it's definitely something new (at least the ease of it is) and, IMO, worth looking into. 1: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/ https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/
lazyjones 11y ago
> Obviously most Perl users understand the benefits of Perl 6. I've been using Perl since 1994, built a company around Perl 5 code and the attractiveness of Perl 6 for me so far is: 0. I know the price paid (later) for ease of writing (maintainability or lack thereof and lots of traps for the unwary - using Perl::Critic has a devastating effect on perceived "freedom" and simplicity) and a language crammed full of fancy features (the Perl 5 interpreter code base is widely considered unmaintainable these days). I honestly can't think of a single use case of Perl 6 with more than 10 lines or so where it'll work better than e.g. Go.
- mst 11y ago
  > the Perl 5 interpreter code base is widely considered unmaintainable these days People love to say this, but having read a fair chunk of the sources to perl5, cpython, ruby, Tcl and erlang's VMs, my semi-educated conclusion is "reasonably fast interpreters written in portable C all end up as their own slightly bizarre CPP-supported C dialect, and all end up more similar than they are different".
  - lazyjones 11y ago
    > and all end up more similar than they are different". It's not that simple. Tcl, Ruby and Python all have several competing implementations, while to my knowledge nobody has even written a complete Perl 5 parser (except the one in the official Perl 5 code).
    - kamaal 11y ago
      One of the goals of Perl 6 is to ensure several implementations of a Perl 6 specifications should be possible.
    - mst 11y ago
      While this is true, I was specifically addressing the comprehensibility of the core perl5 VM sources - so the existence of N other VMs seems orthogonal to me. Or: I agree with everything you said apart from the implication that what you said is a counter argument to what I said - it seems to me that both can be true without conflict.
deckiedan 11y ago
I used to use perl, years ago, but moved across to Python for various reasons. I've been reading about, playing with, and really enjoying perl6 since the christmas announcements. The idea of a 'fun hackers language' really appeals. There's a lot of 'oh sweeeeeet!' moments. I still won't be using perl for any production projects / work stuff for a while, but as a fun out-of-hours playground, this really does look like a cool new language. I'm pretty excited by it.

by aikah 11y ago

krylon 11y ago

OTOH, Perl6 is effectively a new language. So knowing Perl5 is not that big an advantage. I get that learning Perl is not a very attractive proposition these days, and Perl6 currently does not have the vast library/framework ecosystem Perl5 has. But I think Perl6 is not just for Perl5 programmers. In fact, I think a lot of Perl5 people are going to stick with Perl5 for a while due to a) libraries/frameworks and b) existing code that needs to be maintained.

signa11 11y ago

> The issue is, why would anyone want to move from Ruby/Python/Js to Perl in 2016... actually not quite. given the plethora of libraries/frameworks etc. for perl-5, why would perl-5 programmers move to perl-6 ?

hahainternet 11y ago
> actually not quite. given the plethora of libraries/frameworks etc. for perl-5, why would perl-5 programmers move to perl-6 ? I'm a Perl 5 programmer. Perl 6 is a more perly Perl. I can use my Perl 5 modules if I really want, but I can write better specified, safer and more logical code. Just having simple functions like 'whenever' makes developing fun and easy. Please see http://jnthn.net/papers/2015-yapcasia-concurrency.pdf http://jnthn.net/papers/2015-yapcasia-concurrency.pdf for context
brudgers 11y ago
My intuition is that current users of Perl 5 probably fall largely into two camps: using it because it looks like the best tool for the job or using it because it is the language of their soul. People in the first group would switch if Perl6 looks like a better tool. Short of revelation the second group won't. Hardcore Perl programmers have had a long time to think about Perl 6 and come to their conclusions. It's not a community where evangelism is likely to make a difference these days. I don't think the Perl community is like the Python community for cultural reasons that stem from their histories.
- gaius 11y ago
  Perl 5's killer app is CPAN. It will be a looooong time before Perl 6 can compete.
  - awwaiid 11y ago
    I'm contributing toward language integration bindings, hoping to make it convenient and socially acceptable to call out to Perl 5, Python, Ruby, ... so that we will have (a subset of) CPAN, pypy, Rubygems, and so on. You can do this from any language really -- it is just binding to the c lib of the guest language. It kinda makes me sad that the instinct for most of these things is to port a lib from language to language to language... when does it end?! I never want anyone to write pyplot again -- let's just call pyplot from ALL the languages thanks to the magic that is a little c library called libpython.
  - kbenson 11y ago
    You seem to be under the impression that Perl 6 can't use Perl 5 CPAN modules. https://github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5 https://github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5
    - gaius 11y ago
      What advantage does running Perl 5 code in the Perl 6 runtime give you? Is it enough to warrant switching?
      - kbenson 11y ago
        Depending on how you look at it, the advantage is either all of the Perl 5 ecosystem plus whatever Perl 6 brings to the table, or the lack of a disadvantage through not having a large module ecosystem, depending on how charitable you want to be. Not to mention, you also have Inline::Python[1], and conceivably any other runtimes they want to embed. I think it would be interesting to see what you get by taking the best of class in each ecosystem and using them. It may or may not scale well due to data marshalling, but it's definitely something new (at least the ease of it is) and, IMO, worth looking into. 1: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/ https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/

lazyjones 11y ago

> Obviously most Perl users understand the benefits of Perl 6. I've been using Perl since 1994, built a company around Perl 5 code and the attractiveness of Perl 6 for me so far is: 0. I know the price paid (later) for ease of writing (maintainability or lack thereof and lots of traps for the unwary - using Perl::Critic has a devastating effect on perceived "freedom" and simplicity) and a language crammed full of fancy features (the Perl 5 interpreter code base is widely considered unmaintainable these days). I honestly can't think of a single use case of Perl 6 with more than 10 lines or so where it'll work better than e.g. Go.

mst 11y ago
> the Perl 5 interpreter code base is widely considered unmaintainable these days People love to say this, but having read a fair chunk of the sources to perl5, cpython, ruby, Tcl and erlang's VMs, my semi-educated conclusion is "reasonably fast interpreters written in portable C all end up as their own slightly bizarre CPP-supported C dialect, and all end up more similar than they are different".
- lazyjones 11y ago
  > and all end up more similar than they are different". It's not that simple. Tcl, Ruby and Python all have several competing implementations, while to my knowledge nobody has even written a complete Perl 5 parser (except the one in the official Perl 5 code).
  - kamaal 11y ago
    One of the goals of Perl 6 is to ensure several implementations of a Perl 6 specifications should be possible.
  - mst 11y ago
    While this is true, I was specifically addressing the comprehensibility of the core perl5 VM sources - so the existence of N other VMs seems orthogonal to me. Or: I agree with everything you said apart from the implication that what you said is a counter argument to what I said - it seems to me that both can be true without conflict.

deckiedan 11y ago

I used to use perl, years ago, but moved across to Python for various reasons. I've been reading about, playing with, and really enjoying perl6 since the christmas announcements. The idea of a 'fun hackers language' really appeals. There's a lot of 'oh sweeeeeet!' moments. I still won't be using perl for any production projects / work stuff for a while, but as a fun out-of-hours playground, this really does look like a cool new language. I'm pretty excited by it.