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> And other people are better? Yes they are. There's a reason why product managers exist. I don't think the author's point is that technical people can't wri

> And other people are better? Yes they are. There's a reason why product managers exist. I don't think the author's point is that technical people can't write clear instructions, it's that technical individuals sometimes mock or deride others over things that "should be obvious".

jonesb6 11y ago
Wait wait wait wait. You're saying project managers (which can be superimposed to middle management in general really) are innately better at understanding users then the average developer? Edit: Ok you said product managers. Which I suppose is reasonable, product managers should have a good understanding of developing products for customers. I'm going to leave the top part of my comment because in retrospect its food for thought. Are developers innately bad at understanding users? Is middle management better?
- geofft 11y ago
  Developers are good at creating mental models of how the system probably works underneath. Non-developer users usually don't do this. If you're making a product for non-developer users, your subconscious tendency to model the system is a disadvantage, because you won't have a reliable sense for what's intuitive and what's not. If an abstraction leaks, you'll see straight through it and manipulate what's under the abstraction; a non-developer user will continue to try to manipulate the abstraction itself. This disadvantage potentially extends to managers whose job includes understanding what the abstracted-over system is, but they're probably not thinking about it as hard on a day-to-day basis as the developers. (Note that "non-developer users" probably also includes developers whose expertise does not extend to the specific system in question and therefore have no ability to guess what's leaking across the abstraction barrier, e.g., Linux users trying to use a Windows tool, new employees figuring out your in-house build system, etc. etc.)
- funkyy 11y ago
  Totally. Most of developers I know are unable to see what people want. They are good at technical point of view, they are good at recognizing patterns and read data, but usually they are unable to connect all the dots and make something beautiful. I started developing just 3 years ago, after shifting from marketing and sales. Its amazing how most developers lack social skills needed to understand user trends. Yes, product managers are important to connect technical point of view with more abstract one. No, not all developers are like that, but I would say 2/3 at least. Developers are mostly good at creating products that they would use. Once they enter ground where they create product for others - thats when difficult part begins.
  - ArkyBeagle 11y ago
    I wonder if any of these 2/3 of developers ever had a service job? Has it gotten to the point to where they're like football players, and all they've done since the sixth grade is code?
barry-cotter 11y ago
Any group with expertise that's not widely shared will do the same. The illusion of transparency means people are shockingly bad at knowing what's obvious or easy unless they're teachers. That doesn't always help either.
michaelcampbell 11y ago
I haven't found PM's to be particularly better "with people" than any other group, honestly.
- luckydata 11y ago
  We are not better "with people", but we are trained (at least some of us are) in understanding what people want and need, and how to translate those wants and needs in something a tech team can build.
TeMPOraL 11y ago
Oh you must be joking. PMs are terrible. And technical people are basically the only ones who actually know how to write things in detailed and unambiguous enough way - it's something you can't really learn without trying and learning just "how dumb computers are" - which actually means, "how many things people implicitly assume to be self-explanatory or common knowledge". > I don't think the author's point is that technical people can't write clear instructions, it's that technical individuals sometimes mock or deride others over things that "should be obvious". That I can totally believe. But then again, non-technical people like to do that too - often the "obvious" thing being the one that they conveniently forgot to mention at all.
- zenlikethat 11y ago
  > Oh you must be joking. PMs are terrible. If companies weren't getting value from them, they wouldn't be hiring them. > And technical people are basically the only ones who actually know how to write things in detailed and unambiguous enough way No, that's exactly OP's point. Developers in general are terrible at writing explanatory text (if they even bother at all) because they make so many assumptions about background knowledge that others don't share.

jonesb6 11y ago

Wait wait wait wait. You're saying project managers (which can be superimposed to middle management in general really) are innately better at understanding users then the average developer? Edit: Ok you said product managers. Which I suppose is reasonable, product managers should have a good understanding of developing products for customers. I'm going to leave the top part of my comment because in retrospect its food for thought. Are developers innately bad at understanding users? Is middle management better?

geofft 11y ago
Developers are good at creating mental models of how the system probably works underneath. Non-developer users usually don't do this. If you're making a product for non-developer users, your subconscious tendency to model the system is a disadvantage, because you won't have a reliable sense for what's intuitive and what's not. If an abstraction leaks, you'll see straight through it and manipulate what's under the abstraction; a non-developer user will continue to try to manipulate the abstraction itself. This disadvantage potentially extends to managers whose job includes understanding what the abstracted-over system is, but they're probably not thinking about it as hard on a day-to-day basis as the developers. (Note that "non-developer users" probably also includes developers whose expertise does not extend to the specific system in question and therefore have no ability to guess what's leaking across the abstraction barrier, e.g., Linux users trying to use a Windows tool, new employees figuring out your in-house build system, etc. etc.)
funkyy 11y ago
Totally. Most of developers I know are unable to see what people want. They are good at technical point of view, they are good at recognizing patterns and read data, but usually they are unable to connect all the dots and make something beautiful. I started developing just 3 years ago, after shifting from marketing and sales. Its amazing how most developers lack social skills needed to understand user trends. Yes, product managers are important to connect technical point of view with more abstract one. No, not all developers are like that, but I would say 2/3 at least. Developers are mostly good at creating products that they would use. Once they enter ground where they create product for others - thats when difficult part begins.
- ArkyBeagle 11y ago
  I wonder if any of these 2/3 of developers ever had a service job? Has it gotten to the point to where they're like football players, and all they've done since the sixth grade is code?

barry-cotter 11y ago

Any group with expertise that's not widely shared will do the same. The illusion of transparency means people are shockingly bad at knowing what's obvious or easy unless they're teachers. That doesn't always help either.

michaelcampbell 11y ago

I haven't found PM's to be particularly better "with people" than any other group, honestly.

luckydata 11y ago
We are not better "with people", but we are trained (at least some of us are) in understanding what people want and need, and how to translate those wants and needs in something a tech team can build.

TeMPOraL 11y ago

Oh you must be joking. PMs are terrible. And technical people are basically the only ones who actually know how to write things in detailed and unambiguous enough way - it's something you can't really learn without trying and learning just "how dumb computers are" - which actually means, "how many things people implicitly assume to be self-explanatory or common knowledge". > I don't think the author's point is that technical people can't write clear instructions, it's that technical individuals sometimes mock or deride others over things that "should be obvious". That I can totally believe. But then again, non-technical people like to do that too - often the "obvious" thing being the one that they conveniently forgot to mention at all.

zenlikethat 11y ago
> Oh you must be joking. PMs are terrible. If companies weren't getting value from them, they wouldn't be hiring them. > And technical people are basically the only ones who actually know how to write things in detailed and unambiguous enough way No, that's exactly OP's point. Developers in general are terrible at writing explanatory text (if they even bother at all) because they make so many assumptions about background knowledge that others don't share.