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Thanks Bob! Totally agree with you - it really is a battle of fighting against my "engineering instinct" which just wants to build stuff all day, no matter how

Thanks Bob! Totally agree with you - it really is a battle of fighting against my "engineering instinct" which just wants to build stuff all day, no matter how useless it is. I have deliberated over this internally with myself and others for a long time. In fact, half way into the character animation I was kicking myself for even beginning working on it. I tend to justify things (whether rational or not) as a content problem ("Oh I can just build this system and it will make making this type of content so much easier!"). I now really need to hone down on gameplay (and stop just telling myself to do so). :)

munificent 11y ago
> I tend to justify things (whether rational or not) as a content problem ("Oh I can just build this system and it will make making this type of content so much easier!"). That can also be a trap (one that I myself am particularly prone to given how much I love roguelikes and tool-building). When it comes to games, I'm just not wired right to enjoy hand-authoring content. So when I do game-like stuff, I tend to lean towards procedural generation because it lets me avoid that unpleasant task. But, I've learned, painfully, time and time again, that that tends to be way harder than hand-authoring. It kind of makes sense. If hand-drawing a fun level is difficult for me to do, why should it be easier for me to write a program than can author a million of them? In some sense, the latter must be strictly harder since it is a superset of hand-authoring a few one-off things. Tool-building does matter, of course. But sometimes you just gotta make some stuff. Another option is to push it onto the player: make the gameplay itself creative. That can work (SimCity), but it can also fizzle out (Spore). The problem there is similar, I think. With hand-authored content, you have to come up with a narrative path or maybe a tree through the possible game space that's fun to play. With player-authored content, the entire play space has to be fun. Otherwise they'll be able to make anything, but most of the stuff they make won't be fun to make.
- BatFastard 11y ago
  "One more system will solve my problem" is the siren's lure isn't it. But I have learned "It's turtles all the way down". Each problem solved reveals more opportunities. So I just try to enjoy the process of learning, if I am lucky it will end up being fun too. If not I enjoyed the journey.
  - gavanwoolery 11y ago
    I never knew the source of that expression until just now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down
- gavanwoolery 11y ago
  I agree, especially if you are just making one game, there really is no point to procedural generation - other tools will make all that much easier (Maya, Blender, etc). I'm trying to think outside the context of just making one game, but rather making something that people can broadly use that it is simpler than Maya and Blender, and even disguised as a game to lure people to it. This could be a foolish move - the odds are already against me making a game, let alone a platform/engine. But I feel like somebody has to shake things up a bit, we are getting too comfortable with our AAA Unreal games. :)
WhiteNoiz3 11y ago
I also struggle with adding extra features to a game I'm working on. I've added "You're not going to need it" to the top of my to-do list as a way to force myself to think everytime I add something on there. ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_aren%27t_gonna_need_it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_aren%27t_gonna_need_it Have you ever heard of the game Magic Carpet? See http://www.gog.com/game/magic_carpet http://www.gog.com/game/magic_carpet . It had insanely good destructible terrain, base building and exploration. I think something like that might work extremely well with your engine and also there has never been another game quite like it that combined exploration and resource gathering with the almost RTS like base elements (and of course the fun of creating volcanoes and dropping asteroids on your opponent's base).
- gavanwoolery 11y ago
  Yep I know about Magic Carpet - its one of those games (along with Outcast, Commanche, etc) that drew me to alternative engines over polygon-based ones. Initial ideas for a prototype did revolve around base building, mini RTS / tower defense style stuff.
- gpderetta 11y ago
  Magic carpet, what great memories! A modern take on the theme would be great in VR.
chipsy 11y ago
As someone who has commented on your engine threads in the past(and pointed out this challenge) it's good to see that you're getting towards the content stage of dev. Here is my tip this time: try to find a lot of anchors outside of the game engine. You can do design incrementally by defining what the "rules", "logic", and "lore" of the world are, in order to clarify it. For example, use a mind map tool like a writer to plan scenario ideas. Pick a genre of music and a visual design language and incorporate them into the game's identity. Consider the limitations of the camera and control scheme and allow those elements to shape the scenarios. Borrow plots and characters from stories you like. Compose an essay response to something you want to critique, and then figure out ways to turn that essay into game form. If you don't have ideas for game mechanics, you can develop the story more instead and you'll eventually find some story elements that convert into mechanics. The more of these things you can piece together in a coherent way, the more it will start to look like a complete design where "the work is cut out for you", instead of being a mass of bad content to crank out. There are a lot of ways to go about defining the design, but you will have to find some anchors if you want good content without a lot of meandering and second-guessing. The meandering should happen in notes and sketches, well before you try to write final code or assets. Oh, and all of this can be done with an eye towards marketing. You can opt to choose and highlight elements specifically to capture an audience. The hard part tends to be finding concepts that you're happy enough with to want to think about for months on end.
- gavanwoolery 11y ago
  I agree - ironically I am not particularly interested in a fantasy setting and many other people are tired of fantasy as well (although I could still probably get away with such a setting). Fortunately if I do decide to do some other design there is not really much work towards content yet - all of the stuff in there is broadly applicable. I have always been interested in a Fallout-style universe. As much as those things are important (and they are) above all I think I really need to laser in concept-wise as well; that may just mean mean going with something tried and true in the early stage.
  - chipsy 11y ago

munificent 11y ago

> I tend to justify things (whether rational or not) as a content problem ("Oh I can just build this system and it will make making this type of content so much easier!"). That can also be a trap (one that I myself am particularly prone to given how much I love roguelikes and tool-building). When it comes to games, I'm just not wired right to enjoy hand-authoring content. So when I do game-like stuff, I tend to lean towards procedural generation because it lets me avoid that unpleasant task. But, I've learned, painfully, time and time again, that that tends to be way harder than hand-authoring. It kind of makes sense. If hand-drawing a fun level is difficult for me to do, why should it be easier for me to write a program than can author a million of them? In some sense, the latter must be strictly harder since it is a superset of hand-authoring a few one-off things. Tool-building does matter, of course. But sometimes you just gotta make some stuff. Another option is to push it onto the player: make the gameplay itself creative. That can work (SimCity), but it can also fizzle out (Spore). The problem there is similar, I think. With hand-authored content, you have to come up with a narrative path or maybe a tree through the possible game space that's fun to play. With player-authored content, the entire play space has to be fun. Otherwise they'll be able to make anything, but most of the stuff they make won't be fun to make.

BatFastard 11y ago
"One more system will solve my problem" is the siren's lure isn't it. But I have learned "It's turtles all the way down". Each problem solved reveals more opportunities. So I just try to enjoy the process of learning, if I am lucky it will end up being fun too. If not I enjoyed the journey.
- gavanwoolery 11y ago
  I never knew the source of that expression until just now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down
gavanwoolery 11y ago
I agree, especially if you are just making one game, there really is no point to procedural generation - other tools will make all that much easier (Maya, Blender, etc). I'm trying to think outside the context of just making one game, but rather making something that people can broadly use that it is simpler than Maya and Blender, and even disguised as a game to lure people to it. This could be a foolish move - the odds are already against me making a game, let alone a platform/engine. But I feel like somebody has to shake things up a bit, we are getting too comfortable with our AAA Unreal games. :)

WhiteNoiz3 11y ago

I also struggle with adding extra features to a game I'm working on. I've added "You're not going to need it" to the top of my to-do list as a way to force myself to think everytime I add something on there. ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_aren%27t_gonna_need_it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_aren%27t_gonna_need_it Have you ever heard of the game Magic Carpet? See http://www.gog.com/game/magic_carpet http://www.gog.com/game/magic_carpet . It had insanely good destructible terrain, base building and exploration. I think something like that might work extremely well with your engine and also there has never been another game quite like it that combined exploration and resource gathering with the almost RTS like base elements (and of course the fun of creating volcanoes and dropping asteroids on your opponent's base).

gavanwoolery 11y ago
Yep I know about Magic Carpet - its one of those games (along with Outcast, Commanche, etc) that drew me to alternative engines over polygon-based ones. Initial ideas for a prototype did revolve around base building, mini RTS / tower defense style stuff.
gpderetta 11y ago
Magic carpet, what great memories! A modern take on the theme would be great in VR.

chipsy 11y ago

As someone who has commented on your engine threads in the past(and pointed out this challenge) it's good to see that you're getting towards the content stage of dev. Here is my tip this time: try to find a lot of anchors outside of the game engine. You can do design incrementally by defining what the "rules", "logic", and "lore" of the world are, in order to clarify it. For example, use a mind map tool like a writer to plan scenario ideas. Pick a genre of music and a visual design language and incorporate them into the game's identity. Consider the limitations of the camera and control scheme and allow those elements to shape the scenarios. Borrow plots and characters from stories you like. Compose an essay response to something you want to critique, and then figure out ways to turn that essay into game form. If you don't have ideas for game mechanics, you can develop the story more instead and you'll eventually find some story elements that convert into mechanics. The more of these things you can piece together in a coherent way, the more it will start to look like a complete design where "the work is cut out for you", instead of being a mass of bad content to crank out. There are a lot of ways to go about defining the design, but you will have to find some anchors if you want good content without a lot of meandering and second-guessing. The meandering should happen in notes and sketches, well before you try to write final code or assets. Oh, and all of this can be done with an eye towards marketing. You can opt to choose and highlight elements specifically to capture an audience. The hard part tends to be finding concepts that you're happy enough with to want to think about for months on end.

gavanwoolery 11y ago
I agree - ironically I am not particularly interested in a fantasy setting and many other people are tired of fantasy as well (although I could still probably get away with such a setting). Fortunately if I do decide to do some other design there is not really much work towards content yet - all of the stuff in there is broadly applicable. I have always been interested in a Fallout-style universe. As much as those things are important (and they are) above all I think I really need to laser in concept-wise as well; that may just mean mean going with something tried and true in the early stage.
- chipsy 11y ago