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Guido has stated to not compare semver in the past.[0] Will there be a 3.10 or go to 4.0 after 3.9, per one of his core developers?[1] It's hard to tell with P

Guido has stated to not compare semver in the past.[0] Will there be a 3.10 or go to 4.0 after 3.9, per one of his core developers?[1] It's hard to tell with Python's leadership (no intentional mockery of the term leadership). My guess is that they'll indeed push onwards to Python4 as soon as possible. This being another attempt to make Python2 look as old and crufty as possible. "You're still on Python2? Wow, I'm on 4!". That's the type of political and psychological game the Python core dev team has been playing since 2008 with 3's release. Right alongside the 2020 EOL, another political move. Even though Python 2.7.'10' was never supposed to exist but they went back on that. This because Python3 is mere technical churn, it is not true technical innovation. The issue here is really one with the Python core development team. They have also adopted every niche feature into Python3 by whoever came along to ask for it.[2] This was done for the same reasons as the relative rush to rebrand the failed 3.x branch as 4. An attempt to stir up any hype possible for 3.0+. They got so much wrong with Python3. Feature soup, unicode, and performance losses over 2. Unicode-by-default is the big deal and they didn't even get that right. They simply remapped unicode to str. Which for such a big breaking change, should've been UTF8 alongside other new languages such as Go.[3] But it's worse than that, Python3's feature soup continues in 3.6 there will likely be a 4th string formatting option[4] among throwing everything they can against the wall to see what sticks (while bloating the supposedly simple, "beginners" language). While Python2 has been riding high in popularity[5], it has absolutely nothing to do with Python3. It's in spite of it. There's good reason the core dev team "extended support" for 2.7. It's because they really did create a new, much less successful language and would've lost complete control of Python had they not done it. Python3 is a language that looks mostly like Python, but is Python in name-only. Worse of all, it doesn't stand on it's own two feet with technical merits. I would personally recommend sticking with 2 until 3 ever makes sense, or finding something else to use like Swift or Go. Unlike a web browser or another piece of software, the "latest version" of a programming language is not always in the end-user's best interests. [0]https://twitter.com/gvanrossum/status/583346987925278720 https://twitter.com/gvanrossum/status/583346987925278720 [1]http://www.curiousefficiency.org/posts/2014/08/python-4000.html http://www.curiousefficiency.org/posts/2014/08/python-4000.h... [2]http://learning-python.com/books/python-changes-2014-plus.html#coroutines35 http://learning-python.com/books/python-changes-2014-plus.ht... [3]http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2014/5/12/everything-about-unicode/ http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2014/5/12/everything-about-unicode/ [4]https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0498/ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0498/ [5]http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index....

douchescript 11y ago
Amen! Ruby managed the transition to unicode much better as they delivered 2x performance increase at the same time AND labeled the new version 1.9 instead of two. Much the same problem. Yes python 2 is OK but it's legacy mode and people will move on. I think one of the selling points of python vs ruby is that its so often OK to just use system python(2) versus ruby where you really need to use something like rbenv. Selling point for ruby is that the community is absolutely obsessed with making good tools to facilitate working with it. I have already in my mind decided the future is in languages that are designed with parallelism in mind. Another breaking change for that?
- BuckRogers 11y ago
  No breaking change was required for that. :) The PyPy guys have removed the GIL with existing Python2 code.[0] The CPython core dev team doesn't want to work that hard though- they've just created a lot of needless work for others with their decisions. You're right though, unless someone takes on the mantle of CPython2, we're looking at being forced to move to 3 or find something else. I personally think '16/'17 will be the year(s) of Swift. With the Perfect server-side Swift framework[1], and more sure to come, it's very intriguing. I'm a pretty conservative user myself, and dislike churn and feature bloat so I'm also fairly attracted to Go. I'm not suggesting that's Swift by any means. Go promised no breaking changes for a long time so it's a good choice to write long-lived software in (and who knows what will and won't end up being long-lived so we should always assume the latter). [0]http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2015/03/pypy-stm-251-released.html http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2015/03/pypy-stm-251-released.h... [1]http://perfect.org/ http://perfect.org/
  - Nrpf 11y ago
    Julia
orf 11y ago
Damn, I upvoted you way too early. > They have also adopted every niche feature into Python3 by whoever came along to ask for it. You link to async/await as an example? You realize that's a huge deal and is an awesome feature right? It was something sorely missing, but replicated well with generators (thanks to Python being awesome) since Twisted and Python 2.4. Now is exactly the time to ratify it into the language. His complaints about concurrent programming are senseless as async/await are single threaded and avoid most of the concurrency issues you would typically run into when using threads. They also look a hell of a lot nicer and explicit than 'yield from x'. That whole link[1] is garbage, I don't have enough space to comment on the many absurd statements it contains, but FYI the scientific community in Python is huge and they have been begging for a matrix operator. You sound like you have a large Python 2 codebase that you don't have the time or resources to upgrade. That sucks. Don't channel that hate into Python 3 though. Start your new projects in it and have a play, you will like it. 1. http://learning-python.com/books/python-changes-2014-plus.html#coroutines35 http://learning-python.com/books/python-changes-2014-plus.ht... Edit: That link is like reading the republican far-right news about how Obama is a Muslim sleeper agent. One of his complaints is that "The docs are broken on Windows and incomplete" when he's viewing them using an IE6 frame inside a Windows help file - it even tells him his browser is 'ancient', and he still complains some non-important JS is broken? Oh god. Or how getting rid of .pyo files is a terrible thing, or how type annotations will eventually destroy all that is holy about dynamic typing....

douchescript 11y ago

Amen! Ruby managed the transition to unicode much better as they delivered 2x performance increase at the same time AND labeled the new version 1.9 instead of two. Much the same problem. Yes python 2 is OK but it's legacy mode and people will move on. I think one of the selling points of python vs ruby is that its so often OK to just use system python(2) versus ruby where you really need to use something like rbenv. Selling point for ruby is that the community is absolutely obsessed with making good tools to facilitate working with it. I have already in my mind decided the future is in languages that are designed with parallelism in mind. Another breaking change for that?

BuckRogers 11y ago
No breaking change was required for that. :) The PyPy guys have removed the GIL with existing Python2 code.[0] The CPython core dev team doesn't want to work that hard though- they've just created a lot of needless work for others with their decisions. You're right though, unless someone takes on the mantle of CPython2, we're looking at being forced to move to 3 or find something else. I personally think '16/'17 will be the year(s) of Swift. With the Perfect server-side Swift framework[1], and more sure to come, it's very intriguing. I'm a pretty conservative user myself, and dislike churn and feature bloat so I'm also fairly attracted to Go. I'm not suggesting that's Swift by any means. Go promised no breaking changes for a long time so it's a good choice to write long-lived software in (and who knows what will and won't end up being long-lived so we should always assume the latter). [0]http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2015/03/pypy-stm-251-released.html http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2015/03/pypy-stm-251-released.h... [1]http://perfect.org/ http://perfect.org/
- Nrpf 11y ago
  Julia

orf 11y ago

Damn, I upvoted you way too early. > They have also adopted every niche feature into Python3 by whoever came along to ask for it. You link to async/await as an example? You realize that's a huge deal and is an awesome feature right? It was something sorely missing, but replicated well with generators (thanks to Python being awesome) since Twisted and Python 2.4. Now is exactly the time to ratify it into the language. His complaints about concurrent programming are senseless as async/await are single threaded and avoid most of the concurrency issues you would typically run into when using threads. They also look a hell of a lot nicer and explicit than 'yield from x'. That whole link[1] is garbage, I don't have enough space to comment on the many absurd statements it contains, but FYI the scientific community in Python is huge and they have been begging for a matrix operator. You sound like you have a large Python 2 codebase that you don't have the time or resources to upgrade. That sucks. Don't channel that hate into Python 3 though. Start your new projects in it and have a play, you will like it. 1. http://learning-python.com/books/python-changes-2014-plus.html#coroutines35 http://learning-python.com/books/python-changes-2014-plus.ht... Edit: That link is like reading the republican far-right news about how Obama is a Muslim sleeper agent. One of his complaints is that "The docs are broken on Windows and incomplete" when he's viewing them using an IE6 frame inside a Windows help file - it even tells him his browser is 'ancient', and he still complains some non-important JS is broken? Oh god. Or how getting rid of .pyo files is a terrible thing, or how type annotations will eventually destroy all that is holy about dynamic typing....