8 ms·

Freenode sucks

47 points by jeff18 17y ago

yan 17y ago
"<bramm> and I hope you realize that you just completely pissed off one of the most well known and respected people in the whole open source community" Funny thing about respect, is it takes a while to build up and can be lost in a heartbeat. edit: what's interesting is how respectful the freenode admin was throughout this whole transcript. If anything, kudos to freenode.
- sailormoon 17y ago
  While it's true that Cohen acts like a bit of a douche, I think his point is rock solid. 60 days expiration for lack of use is ridiculous. And the admin he spoke to may have stayed polite, but his glib refusal to do anything to solve an obvious problem, while endlessly reciting some BS rules out of some FAQ somewhere as if they were unbreakable laws of physics, is a terribly attitude and reminds me of the most disinterested, cynical bureaucrats I've ever had to deal with. And for what it's worth, I respect Cohen no less for what he said. I respect him for his deeds, not for his kind and humble soul. If reading a few lines of IRC logs, that he himself posted, is enough to make him lose your respect - I would question whether that respect really meant anything in the first place.
  - bps4484 17y ago
    In addition to their deeds, I respect people for kind and humble souls. I can understand being upset about the situation (and I agree with you that his point is rock solid, the 60 day expiration is ridiculous), but the fact that he 1) made the claim that he was famous, and 2) having had the time to calm down and reread the conversation, thought there was nothing wrong with what he said and posted it to his blog, makes me lose repect for him.
  - Gonsalu 17y ago
    They are called rules for a reason, he should've read them if he relied so much on the channel for communication. He should (and did) get the same treatment as anyone else. "acts like a bit of a douche" is a huge understatement; trying to use your popularity like that is just downright ridiculous...
  - cookiecaper 17y ago
    I respect Cohen less for this. He has contributed good things to OSS which we all appreciate, but that doesn't mean that we need maintain reverence for him regardless of his actions. I would much rather employ and/or associate with a "kind and humble soul" that writes mediocre software than an arrogant dickface who writes excellent software. Clock cycles are much cheaper than tolerance and faith, which diminishes upon exposure to such a man.
  - quxquuxcorge 17y ago
    No way. He was a complete douche and the admin well has no obligation to help him. If he bent the rules for him this time, because some ass was claiming to be bram cohen, then he's opening himself up for shit and falling for any idiot willing to troll irc groups.
  - codahale 17y ago
    It's true. That is a ridiculous policy. They should refund him his money.
- axod 17y ago
  Are you saying you think the policy of expiring nicks after 60 days is a great idea? And the # channels are not to be used unless you fill out a form and wait 6 months? I'm kinda biased, but I think some of the policies are borderline insane. We're sort of used to registering something, and it being there a few months later if we need it. I don't see why you need to delete peoples registrations if they have been on holiday for a couple months. That's just really irritating - I'm not surprised he was pissed. There's a ton of other great networks out there, so if you're setting up a new channel, don't just default to putting it on freenode (IMHO).
  - yan 17y ago
    I specifically made zero comments on freenode's policy. My comment was specifically about Bram's demeanor and his interactions with the admin. I realize that he's good at what he does and contributed a lot, but it's like seeing someone being awfully rude to a waiter, it just gives you a sense of who they are as a person. You can tell a lot about a person at how they handle the inanity of everyday life, like for instance, unreasonable nickname retention policies.
    - axod 17y ago
      Sure, but I think pretty much everyone given a bit of ego massaging would at some point pull a "Do you know who I am?" at some point if they were pissed off enough. Personally I don't hold that against anyone. It's just human nature.
      - Lazlo_Nibble 17y ago
        Personally, I do. In addition to showing a distinct lack of class, in cases like this it also dilutes the advantage of being well known in the first place. Thanks to "who he is," Bram can direct the attention of a lot of eyeballs. A levelheaded post calling out the policy and the problems it causes would have focused those eyeballs on the policy; a ranty chat transcript that shows you repeatedly playing the d-bag card focuses those eyeballs on your willingness to play the d-bag card. It's a stupid, counterproductive distraction and a wasted opportunity, assuming you actually care about solving the root problem.
- crad 17y ago
  On most other networks, he would have been glined for behaving like this.
j79 17y ago
I'm particularly fond of this exchange in the comments: 3ricj: It's still just a damn IRC nick. register a new one and ask an channel op to give you rights to the channel. Problem solved. Don't abuse volunteer support people due to inflated self-importance. It's tacky. Bram: If you'd spent the two minutes necessary to read the conversation you'd know there is no fucking channel op, because I was the only one. Stop being an ass. Unfortunately Bram, there is only one person being an ass...
BjornW 17y ago
Although I've only seen a part of a presumably actual conversation (haven't tried to confirm it using other sources) I do find the attitude shown by Bram Cohen to be something I would not have expected from 'one of the most well known and respected people in the whole open source community'. It actually saddens me to see an open source programming 'role model' of mine behave like a spoiled child I do understand the frustration surrounding the policies, yet I also understand Freenode which is offering a free, gratis service. A more humble approach would probably have yielded a quicker result and IMHO was more appropriate. ps: If Bram Cohen is not really happy with Freenode, he, as 'one of the most well known and respected people in the whole open source community' probably has other options to create a #bittorrent irc channel according his wishes.
- jeff18 17y ago
  The source for the transcript is Bram Cohen's official blog.
- gnurant 17y ago
  He was just p'eed off and rightly so. He tried civility. And aired a bug in the system. That's all.
BigZaphod 17y ago
Interesting.... logs into Freenode Yay! My nick is still registered. I don't think I've logged in for over a year.
ErrantX 17y ago
I have to say Freenode came of rather well here. Bram... not so much. :P <bramm> and I hope you realize that you just completely pissed off one of the most well known and respected people in the whole open source community Sounds like he's possibly completely pissed off a large portion of the Open Source community :)
- jrockway 17y ago
  Indeed. Bram has written some good software, but he's no more important than the thousands of other people that have written good software that I use everyday.
josefresco 17y ago
Asperger and 'being a meanie' can sometimes be confused. I know Bram's diagnosis isn't official but it seems obvious to most that meet him that's he's a little different. Edit: Okay I just RTFA and Bram does seem very douchy. If I was the admin I would have handed his ass to him 1/4 of the way through the conversation when he threw his first insult. And I would have invited him to make a stink in public ... just spell my name right.
- BigZaphod 17y ago
  We're all a little different. That doesn't give him a free pass to be an ass, IMO. Edit re: your edit - lol! :P
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
dylanz 17y ago
6 months? That's pretty lame, and I'd be a bit peeved as well. Having to go through that entire process of re-registering, etc, just to get an account back and admin'ing that group? I'm glad this isn't a global policy on email addresses or website registrations!
- Gonsalu 17y ago
  Actually, it's 60 days.
  - kitt 17y ago
    If you become a supporter and give a donation for the service, you can keep your nick even if you don't log in. So, instead of complaining about a free service, he could have made a tax-deductible donation and not had any of these problems. Alas, lots of "could haves" in this whole episode.
notauser 17y ago
A better title would have been 'Bram Cohen loses Freenode nick, complains' as generally articles here take the title from the link where possible and try not to editorialize when it isn't. ...but it would probably be better still if Internet drama was kept as far away from HN as possible.
- jeff18 17y ago
  On the contrary, I find stuff like this highly interesting and consider myself a hacker. I found the comments between Calacanis and Aaron Wall the most awesome stuff I read on Hacker News in the past week, to be honest, and the way I found those was by looking at the HN top rated comments. It would be interesting to hear other hacker's feelings before we decide what is best for the community.
cmelbye 17y ago
While I agree that he was being a complete jerk to the volunteer, there is some truth to this. Freenode has a policy of reserving the "main" channel namespace (only one hash like #bittorrent or #wikipedia) to officially registered groups. This process is carried out by filling out a long form and waiting for approval. Due to lack of volunteers willing and able to clear out the queue, it takes maybe half a year at minimum. It's nice that Freenode has a system for officially registering groups, but they really should not be actively enforcing rules relying on that if they have no plans to reliably process the gigantic queue.
jeff18 17y ago
For future reference, a good way to handle this would be: "The #bittorrent channel on Freenode has been getting trolled hard lately and I no longer have access to it due to the following policies that I think suck: <insert policies>. After talking to a Freenode support member, they refuse to budge on these so I have moved #bittorrent to irc.bittorrent.com, please join us there!" Wrong way to handle it: Paste the transcript of you smacking a Freenode volunteer around with your 10 foot long e-peen.
- judofyr 17y ago
  Even better way (IMO) to handle it: Register a new nick, ask a Freenode support member to give him OP-access to #bittorrent. Ban trolls - have lunch.
  - SwellJoe 17y ago
    Except the FreeNode channel registration process takes months or years (I'm not entirely sure it works at all for already claimed channels, even if the prior claimant has no relation to the project, and there is no doubt of the claims of the new person attempting to register). You'll starve to death if you plan to have lunch after ops are obtained.
ellyagg 17y ago
I can't believe he thinks it's a good idea to post this conversation. Apparently he's not aware that several of his lines are straight parodies of the Bad Guy in popular entertainment.
- deleted 17y ago
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dschobel 17y ago
Bram Cohen's Aspergers is well-publicized (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_43/b4105046863317.htm http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_43/b41050468...) and essential context for anything you read about/by him.
- ghotli 17y ago
  I had forgotten about this and it changes my feelings about his encounter with the admins. Everyone on the autism spectrum that I've known in my daily life was very rude. If he truly has a mild form of autism then publicly flogging his actions is insensitive and overkill. There's a real difference between the stereotypical rude entitled college student, and someone with a real medical problem. The real question to ask is should he have known better. It's reasonable to suggest that perhaps he did not.
- markpercival 17y ago
  "Cohen never sought a formal diagnosis but turned his considerable attention to the matter" Self-diagnosis. Are you fucking kidding me? Just because you were picked on in highschool and are a huge pain in the ass to work with, doesn't mean you have Aspergers. Guess what, Bram Cohen's probably just an asshole who writes good software.
  - dschobel 17y ago
    Watch any of his talks or speak to anyone who has ever worked with him. It's not just about being rude but genuinely not understanding the socially correct behaviour to his own detriment. Exhibit A: not realizing that it is a bad idea to post a chat transcript of you dressing down a volunteer to a free service.
    - makmanalp 17y ago
      Not understanding social contract is not necessarily Asperger's. Also, exhibit A could also be seen as not caring, there is no proof that he did not realize.
  - 17y ago
SwellJoe 17y ago
So, I'm not "one of the most well known and respected people in the whole open source community" and I'm not as socially inept as Bram, but I, too, had some issues getting things done on FreeNode, and I sympathize with his frustration. The #webmin channel had been claimed by someone unrelated to the project, and who we had no prior contact with; it wasn't a hostile thing, but they hadn't logged in for months, weren't dealing with trolls and had opened access to the topic to everyone (so the topic was being abused for all sorts of ridiculous stuff). We were unable to contact the person directly, so I tried taking over ownership of the channel through the official means. After a year of just waiting (because I'd been warned it was a very slow process, and I don't spend a lot of time in IRC these days), I chimed in on the operators channel, and spoke with a couple of folks. All were nice, friendly folks, but weren't able or willing to do anything about solving our problems with the channel. I believe in the end I was told that our application would be brought to the front of the queue because of the ongoing problems, and how long we'd been waiting. I don't know what, if anything, happened with that; it was at least 8 months ago. I never heard anything about it, anyway, and the last time I logged in, I don't think we had ops on #webmin. So, Bram is a bit of a douche. This is pretty well-known; anyone that has ever met him or interacted with him knows that socially he is inept (and Asperger's gets bandied about as the reason, though I don't think that really accounts for lack of online social graces). I look past it because intellectually he's brilliant, and ethically he seems solid, so two out of three aint bad; in short, he means well, but he can be mean about it. Even in terms of helping people, within the limits of his social graces, he is generous with his time in helping folks use and understand his code. We all have our flaws, and the FreeNode processes and policies and lack of staff to deal appropriately with those process and policies can frustrate someone with the patience of Job. Bram definitely does not have the patience of Job. So, to sum up: A 60 day expiry on accounts is idiotic. The official channel registration process, while well-meaning, is baroque and seems to leave a lot of channels in a lurch of having no operator or an abusive operator for months or years. Bram is kind of an asshole. But we still like FreeNode and we still like Bram.
- neoliminal 17y ago
  Look up Asperger's.
Gonsalu 17y ago
If anything, this just goes to show the quality support you get from Freenode volunteer admins. You act like a douche, you should be treated like a douche; "essential context" of suffering from Asperger syndrome or otherwise.
deleted 17y ago
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metaforth 17y ago
If you read the comments one reason FreeNode is in disarray is because Rob Levin who ran the site died in a bicycling accident a few years ago. In fact the chaos and drama at FreeNode might be the real story here. http://bramcohen.livejournal.com/72298.html?thread=1000554#t1000554 http://bramcohen.livejournal.com/72298.html?thread=1000554#t... Fragglet writes (in the comments): "This shouldn't be surprising to anyone with any experience of Freenode. Freenode is a perfect example of how open source projects tend to acquire the personality of their founder. In the case of Freenode, that founder was Rob Levin, famous for his online begging over wallops and for being completely incompetent in general. Levin's incompetence, begging and dictatorial style where he branded everyone who disagreed with him a "troll" gradually alienated all the sensible and technically skilled people from the network staff until the only people left were his equally incompetent sycophantic underlings. "When Levin died several years ago as a result of his own stupidity (riding a bike without a helmet), they took over. I haven't heard of mquin before but it looks like the cycle continues. "Your best option is to close the Freenode channel and move to OFTC, the staff of which consist mostly of the sensible and technically skilled people who left Freenode." Here are some links with more details, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/01/29/buy_a_piece_of_net/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/01/29/buy_a_piece_of_net/ http://antisec.wordpress.com/2006/06/27/eyeballing-rob-levin/ http://antisec.wordpress.com/2006/06/27/eyeballing-rob-levin...
bramcohen 17y ago
I'd like to clarify a few points around my post. The reason I posted the log verbatim, me being pissed off and all, is that I wanted to make very clear that I was accurately representing official freenode policy, and that requesting help through support leads nowhere. My gripe is with freenode policy, which is asinine, not with the particular person I spoke to, who was merely being useless and patronizing. The reason I got pissed wasn't because of the nick loss, which I find mildly annoying, but because channel ops got blown away, causing me to have to deal with this bullshit instead of just giving ops to someone else. Yes I can be blunt. If you value the superficial affectation of politeness over the essential point of what someone is saying, you can shove it. I don't appreciate people saying that I'm this way because of asperger's, it just causes other people to whine that they're being oppressed because they can't criticize me. The whole line of argument is stupid. People are free to criticize me for not being polite, and I'm free to respond that they're being petty and superficial. The whole 'it's free so you can't complain' argument is bullshit. There are plenty of free things which are of negative value to society because they suck up or distract resources which could be working on a much better alternative. I've provided lots of support for free stuff myself, both via employees and directly, and never have I claimed that a problem won't be fixed because the person airing a legitimate gripe hasn't gone through arbitrary bureaucratic processes, or that the person complaining should implement it themselves because they're a programmer, or refused to acknowledge that some pain a user experienced through no fault of their own really was unfortunate. And I always prioritize up users who matter and problems which need immediate fixing. That's the way you run things if you actually care about providing a valuable service.
- deleted 17y ago
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- AaronI 17y ago
  Your argument that because you're "blunt" entitles you to behave like a 5 year old, is utter bullshit. There is something called tact. If you want people to help you, then perhaps try showing some. The dude had a lot more patience than support channels on other networks that would have outright banned you for your childish behavior and holier than thou attitude.
- 17y ago
redwax 17y ago
There was a problem and someone not solving it - to many this is the douchery. Jobsworth. I would be honoured to have Bram Cohen ask me for some help and given his heroic efforts on behalf of the network I would go above and beyond. Seems Bram just camly stated the facts and the sysop just kept replying rules trump all. Ashbergers Mashbergers for IRC this is probably the most dainty little flame ever. PS Bram Cohen rules teh internets
jay_cee 17y ago
The difference between being an asshole and an Aspie is clear; assholes are completely resistant to hearing about a better way to handle something, and Aspies, go "gee, that didn't occur to me, and I was just looking at it this way, but next time I'll try that." I know Bram pretty well, and when something doesn't work, he listens to his friend's suggestions and tries to add them to his social algorithm. Maybe he doesn't do this too publicly, but would you? In casual everyday life he never throws around status, when he meets people he doesn't say anything other than, "I'm a programmer" if asked. He really usually gets embarrassed by recognition and tries to downplay it. However, I think we've all behaved less than humbly when pushed to our boiling point. The trigger is frequently just the straw that breaks the camel's back, and we all can get pissy. It doesn't meet my high spiritual standards for myself when I lose my temper, but it happens. Jeff18 who posted an actually good suggestion on how to handle this situation, would be really good working with Aspies. That is exactly what they need, and what teachers spend most of their time doing with AS children, modeling different solutions. It was very helpful.
jayliew 17y ago
Taking a step back as an impartial observer, (1) Sure, Freenode's policy can be improved, because a significant amt. of users think it is a bit stifling. The admins need to figure out how to engage the users. (2) In this situation, there are solutions more optimal than douche-baggery. If he wanted his nick back, being nice increases his odds. Bram can use a class in negotations 101. OK - Let's move on with our lives now, don't you need to prepare for the 3/3/2010 YC deadline? If you are bored - there are plenty of single founders looking for co-founder.
z8000 17y ago
Why not just do what Shaquille O'Neal did for Twitter? http://twitter.com/THE_REAL_SHAQ http://twitter.com/THE_REAL_SHAQ Look Bram, you can even yell in your nick too! /nick THE_REAL_BRAM /join #bittorrent /privmsg #bittorrent :Trolls, please stop. It's me, Bram.
wedrifid 17y ago
There is a lesson Bram needs to learn. If you wish to avoid being considered a 'douche' you have to better optimise your statements to undermine your oponent and remove their credibility. He could have posted a factual account of his unpleasant experiences with Freenode that included a sincere warning to any other organisers of official projects. Instead he overemphasised the importance of showing both sides of the story. If you are going to be negative then it is important to do it well and do it ruthlessly. Don't try to be fair or direct. Play to the crowd and ruthlessly take the moral high ground or it will be taken from you, as is the case here. It is a little ironic but if Bram had been more of a Machiavellian 'meanie' then he would not have been been labeled a 'meanie'. Some of the posts here provide good advice on ways he could have done that. It seems clear that Bram's misfortune warrants a warning for all potential users of the Freenode servers. Hopefully this is not missed due to Bram's neglect of political expediency.

47 points by jeff18 17y ago

yan 17y ago

"<bramm> and I hope you realize that you just completely pissed off one of the most well known and respected people in the whole open source community" Funny thing about respect, is it takes a while to build up and can be lost in a heartbeat. edit: what's interesting is how respectful the freenode admin was throughout this whole transcript. If anything, kudos to freenode.

sailormoon 17y ago
While it's true that Cohen acts like a bit of a douche, I think his point is rock solid. 60 days expiration for lack of use is ridiculous. And the admin he spoke to may have stayed polite, but his glib refusal to do anything to solve an obvious problem, while endlessly reciting some BS rules out of some FAQ somewhere as if they were unbreakable laws of physics, is a terribly attitude and reminds me of the most disinterested, cynical bureaucrats I've ever had to deal with. And for what it's worth, I respect Cohen no less for what he said. I respect him for his deeds, not for his kind and humble soul. If reading a few lines of IRC logs, that he himself posted, is enough to make him lose your respect - I would question whether that respect really meant anything in the first place.
- bps4484 17y ago
  In addition to their deeds, I respect people for kind and humble souls. I can understand being upset about the situation (and I agree with you that his point is rock solid, the 60 day expiration is ridiculous), but the fact that he 1) made the claim that he was famous, and 2) having had the time to calm down and reread the conversation, thought there was nothing wrong with what he said and posted it to his blog, makes me lose repect for him.
- Gonsalu 17y ago
  They are called rules for a reason, he should've read them if he relied so much on the channel for communication. He should (and did) get the same treatment as anyone else. "acts like a bit of a douche" is a huge understatement; trying to use your popularity like that is just downright ridiculous...
- cookiecaper 17y ago
  I respect Cohen less for this. He has contributed good things to OSS which we all appreciate, but that doesn't mean that we need maintain reverence for him regardless of his actions. I would much rather employ and/or associate with a "kind and humble soul" that writes mediocre software than an arrogant dickface who writes excellent software. Clock cycles are much cheaper than tolerance and faith, which diminishes upon exposure to such a man.
- quxquuxcorge 17y ago
  No way. He was a complete douche and the admin well has no obligation to help him. If he bent the rules for him this time, because some ass was claiming to be bram cohen, then he's opening himself up for shit and falling for any idiot willing to troll irc groups.
- codahale 17y ago
  It's true. That is a ridiculous policy. They should refund him his money.
axod 17y ago
Are you saying you think the policy of expiring nicks after 60 days is a great idea? And the # channels are not to be used unless you fill out a form and wait 6 months? I'm kinda biased, but I think some of the policies are borderline insane. We're sort of used to registering something, and it being there a few months later if we need it. I don't see why you need to delete peoples registrations if they have been on holiday for a couple months. That's just really irritating - I'm not surprised he was pissed. There's a ton of other great networks out there, so if you're setting up a new channel, don't just default to putting it on freenode (IMHO).
- yan 17y ago
  I specifically made zero comments on freenode's policy. My comment was specifically about Bram's demeanor and his interactions with the admin. I realize that he's good at what he does and contributed a lot, but it's like seeing someone being awfully rude to a waiter, it just gives you a sense of who they are as a person. You can tell a lot about a person at how they handle the inanity of everyday life, like for instance, unreasonable nickname retention policies.
  - axod 17y ago
    Sure, but I think pretty much everyone given a bit of ego massaging would at some point pull a "Do you know who I am?" at some point if they were pissed off enough. Personally I don't hold that against anyone. It's just human nature.
    - Lazlo_Nibble 17y ago
      Personally, I do. In addition to showing a distinct lack of class, in cases like this it also dilutes the advantage of being well known in the first place. Thanks to "who he is," Bram can direct the attention of a lot of eyeballs. A levelheaded post calling out the policy and the problems it causes would have focused those eyeballs on the policy; a ranty chat transcript that shows you repeatedly playing the d-bag card focuses those eyeballs on your willingness to play the d-bag card. It's a stupid, counterproductive distraction and a wasted opportunity, assuming you actually care about solving the root problem.
crad 17y ago
On most other networks, he would have been glined for behaving like this.

j79 17y ago

I'm particularly fond of this exchange in the comments: 3ricj: It's still just a damn IRC nick. register a new one and ask an channel op to give you rights to the channel. Problem solved. Don't abuse volunteer support people due to inflated self-importance. It's tacky. Bram: If you'd spent the two minutes necessary to read the conversation you'd know there is no fucking channel op, because I was the only one. Stop being an ass. Unfortunately Bram, there is only one person being an ass...

BjornW 17y ago

Although I've only seen a part of a presumably actual conversation (haven't tried to confirm it using other sources) I do find the attitude shown by Bram Cohen to be something I would not have expected from 'one of the most well known and respected people in the whole open source community'. It actually saddens me to see an open source programming 'role model' of mine behave like a spoiled child I do understand the frustration surrounding the policies, yet I also understand Freenode which is offering a free, gratis service. A more humble approach would probably have yielded a quicker result and IMHO was more appropriate. ps: If Bram Cohen is not really happy with Freenode, he, as 'one of the most well known and respected people in the whole open source community' probably has other options to create a #bittorrent irc channel according his wishes.

jeff18 17y ago
The source for the transcript is Bram Cohen's official blog.
gnurant 17y ago
He was just p'eed off and rightly so. He tried civility. And aired a bug in the system. That's all.

BigZaphod 17y ago

Interesting.... logs into Freenode Yay! My nick is still registered. I don't think I've logged in for over a year.

ErrantX 17y ago

I have to say Freenode came of rather well here. Bram... not so much. :P <bramm> and I hope you realize that you just completely pissed off one of the most well known and respected people in the whole open source community Sounds like he's possibly completely pissed off a large portion of the Open Source community :)

jrockway 17y ago
Indeed. Bram has written some good software, but he's no more important than the thousands of other people that have written good software that I use everyday.

josefresco 17y ago

Asperger and 'being a meanie' can sometimes be confused. I know Bram's diagnosis isn't official but it seems obvious to most that meet him that's he's a little different. Edit: Okay I just RTFA and Bram does seem very douchy. If I was the admin I would have handed his ass to him 1/4 of the way through the conversation when he threw his first insult. And I would have invited him to make a stink in public ... just spell my name right.

BigZaphod 17y ago
We're all a little different. That doesn't give him a free pass to be an ass, IMO. Edit re: your edit - lol! :P
- deleted 17y ago
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dylanz 17y ago

6 months? That's pretty lame, and I'd be a bit peeved as well. Having to go through that entire process of re-registering, etc, just to get an account back and admin'ing that group? I'm glad this isn't a global policy on email addresses or website registrations!

Gonsalu 17y ago
Actually, it's 60 days.
- kitt 17y ago
  If you become a supporter and give a donation for the service, you can keep your nick even if you don't log in. So, instead of complaining about a free service, he could have made a tax-deductible donation and not had any of these problems. Alas, lots of "could haves" in this whole episode.

notauser 17y ago

A better title would have been 'Bram Cohen loses Freenode nick, complains' as generally articles here take the title from the link where possible and try not to editorialize when it isn't. ...but it would probably be better still if Internet drama was kept as far away from HN as possible.

jeff18 17y ago
On the contrary, I find stuff like this highly interesting and consider myself a hacker. I found the comments between Calacanis and Aaron Wall the most awesome stuff I read on Hacker News in the past week, to be honest, and the way I found those was by looking at the HN top rated comments. It would be interesting to hear other hacker's feelings before we decide what is best for the community.

cmelbye 17y ago

While I agree that he was being a complete jerk to the volunteer, there is some truth to this. Freenode has a policy of reserving the "main" channel namespace (only one hash like #bittorrent or #wikipedia) to officially registered groups. This process is carried out by filling out a long form and waiting for approval. Due to lack of volunteers willing and able to clear out the queue, it takes maybe half a year at minimum. It's nice that Freenode has a system for officially registering groups, but they really should not be actively enforcing rules relying on that if they have no plans to reliably process the gigantic queue.

jeff18 17y ago

For future reference, a good way to handle this would be: "The #bittorrent channel on Freenode has been getting trolled hard lately and I no longer have access to it due to the following policies that I think suck: <insert policies>. After talking to a Freenode support member, they refuse to budge on these so I have moved #bittorrent to irc.bittorrent.com, please join us there!" Wrong way to handle it: Paste the transcript of you smacking a Freenode volunteer around with your 10 foot long e-peen.

judofyr 17y ago
Even better way (IMO) to handle it: Register a new nick, ask a Freenode support member to give him OP-access to #bittorrent. Ban trolls - have lunch.
- SwellJoe 17y ago
  Except the FreeNode channel registration process takes months or years (I'm not entirely sure it works at all for already claimed channels, even if the prior claimant has no relation to the project, and there is no doubt of the claims of the new person attempting to register). You'll starve to death if you plan to have lunch after ops are obtained.

ellyagg 17y ago

I can't believe he thinks it's a good idea to post this conversation. Apparently he's not aware that several of his lines are straight parodies of the Bad Guy in popular entertainment.

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dschobel 17y ago

Bram Cohen's Aspergers is well-publicized (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_43/b4105046863317.htm http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_43/b41050468...) and essential context for anything you read about/by him.

ghotli 17y ago
I had forgotten about this and it changes my feelings about his encounter with the admins. Everyone on the autism spectrum that I've known in my daily life was very rude. If he truly has a mild form of autism then publicly flogging his actions is insensitive and overkill. There's a real difference between the stereotypical rude entitled college student, and someone with a real medical problem. The real question to ask is should he have known better. It's reasonable to suggest that perhaps he did not.
markpercival 17y ago
"Cohen never sought a formal diagnosis but turned his considerable attention to the matter" Self-diagnosis. Are you fucking kidding me? Just because you were picked on in highschool and are a huge pain in the ass to work with, doesn't mean you have Aspergers. Guess what, Bram Cohen's probably just an asshole who writes good software.
- dschobel 17y ago
  Watch any of his talks or speak to anyone who has ever worked with him. It's not just about being rude but genuinely not understanding the socially correct behaviour to his own detriment. Exhibit A: not realizing that it is a bad idea to post a chat transcript of you dressing down a volunteer to a free service.
  - makmanalp 17y ago
    Not understanding social contract is not necessarily Asperger's. Also, exhibit A could also be seen as not caring, there is no proof that he did not realize.
- 17y ago

SwellJoe 17y ago

So, I'm not "one of the most well known and respected people in the whole open source community" and I'm not as socially inept as Bram, but I, too, had some issues getting things done on FreeNode, and I sympathize with his frustration. The #webmin channel had been claimed by someone unrelated to the project, and who we had no prior contact with; it wasn't a hostile thing, but they hadn't logged in for months, weren't dealing with trolls and had opened access to the topic to everyone (so the topic was being abused for all sorts of ridiculous stuff). We were unable to contact the person directly, so I tried taking over ownership of the channel through the official means. After a year of just waiting (because I'd been warned it was a very slow process, and I don't spend a lot of time in IRC these days), I chimed in on the operators channel, and spoke with a couple of folks. All were nice, friendly folks, but weren't able or willing to do anything about solving our problems with the channel. I believe in the end I was told that our application would be brought to the front of the queue because of the ongoing problems, and how long we'd been waiting. I don't know what, if anything, happened with that; it was at least 8 months ago. I never heard anything about it, anyway, and the last time I logged in, I don't think we had ops on #webmin. So, Bram is a bit of a douche. This is pretty well-known; anyone that has ever met him or interacted with him knows that socially he is inept (and Asperger's gets bandied about as the reason, though I don't think that really accounts for lack of online social graces). I look past it because intellectually he's brilliant, and ethically he seems solid, so two out of three aint bad; in short, he means well, but he can be mean about it. Even in terms of helping people, within the limits of his social graces, he is generous with his time in helping folks use and understand his code. We all have our flaws, and the FreeNode processes and policies and lack of staff to deal appropriately with those process and policies can frustrate someone with the patience of Job. Bram definitely does not have the patience of Job. So, to sum up: A 60 day expiry on accounts is idiotic. The official channel registration process, while well-meaning, is baroque and seems to leave a lot of channels in a lurch of having no operator or an abusive operator for months or years. Bram is kind of an asshole. But we still like FreeNode and we still like Bram.

neoliminal 17y ago
Look up Asperger's.

Gonsalu 17y ago

If anything, this just goes to show the quality support you get from Freenode volunteer admins. You act like a douche, you should be treated like a douche; "essential context" of suffering from Asperger syndrome or otherwise.

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metaforth 17y ago

If you read the comments one reason FreeNode is in disarray is because Rob Levin who ran the site died in a bicycling accident a few years ago. In fact the chaos and drama at FreeNode might be the real story here. http://bramcohen.livejournal.com/72298.html?thread=1000554#t1000554 http://bramcohen.livejournal.com/72298.html?thread=1000554#t... Fragglet writes (in the comments): "This shouldn't be surprising to anyone with any experience of Freenode. Freenode is a perfect example of how open source projects tend to acquire the personality of their founder. In the case of Freenode, that founder was Rob Levin, famous for his online begging over wallops and for being completely incompetent in general. Levin's incompetence, begging and dictatorial style where he branded everyone who disagreed with him a "troll" gradually alienated all the sensible and technically skilled people from the network staff until the only people left were his equally incompetent sycophantic underlings. "When Levin died several years ago as a result of his own stupidity (riding a bike without a helmet), they took over. I haven't heard of mquin before but it looks like the cycle continues. "Your best option is to close the Freenode channel and move to OFTC, the staff of which consist mostly of the sensible and technically skilled people who left Freenode." Here are some links with more details, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/01/29/buy_a_piece_of_net/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/01/29/buy_a_piece_of_net/ http://antisec.wordpress.com/2006/06/27/eyeballing-rob-levin/ http://antisec.wordpress.com/2006/06/27/eyeballing-rob-levin...

bramcohen 17y ago

I'd like to clarify a few points around my post. The reason I posted the log verbatim, me being pissed off and all, is that I wanted to make very clear that I was accurately representing official freenode policy, and that requesting help through support leads nowhere. My gripe is with freenode policy, which is asinine, not with the particular person I spoke to, who was merely being useless and patronizing. The reason I got pissed wasn't because of the nick loss, which I find mildly annoying, but because channel ops got blown away, causing me to have to deal with this bullshit instead of just giving ops to someone else. Yes I can be blunt. If you value the superficial affectation of politeness over the essential point of what someone is saying, you can shove it. I don't appreciate people saying that I'm this way because of asperger's, it just causes other people to whine that they're being oppressed because they can't criticize me. The whole line of argument is stupid. People are free to criticize me for not being polite, and I'm free to respond that they're being petty and superficial. The whole 'it's free so you can't complain' argument is bullshit. There are plenty of free things which are of negative value to society because they suck up or distract resources which could be working on a much better alternative. I've provided lots of support for free stuff myself, both via employees and directly, and never have I claimed that a problem won't be fixed because the person airing a legitimate gripe hasn't gone through arbitrary bureaucratic processes, or that the person complaining should implement it themselves because they're a programmer, or refused to acknowledge that some pain a user experienced through no fault of their own really was unfortunate. And I always prioritize up users who matter and problems which need immediate fixing. That's the way you run things if you actually care about providing a valuable service.

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AaronI 17y ago
Your argument that because you're "blunt" entitles you to behave like a 5 year old, is utter bullshit. There is something called tact. If you want people to help you, then perhaps try showing some. The dude had a lot more patience than support channels on other networks that would have outright banned you for your childish behavior and holier than thou attitude.
17y ago

redwax 17y ago

There was a problem and someone not solving it - to many this is the douchery. Jobsworth. I would be honoured to have Bram Cohen ask me for some help and given his heroic efforts on behalf of the network I would go above and beyond. Seems Bram just camly stated the facts and the sysop just kept replying rules trump all. Ashbergers Mashbergers for IRC this is probably the most dainty little flame ever. PS Bram Cohen rules teh internets

jay_cee 17y ago

The difference between being an asshole and an Aspie is clear; assholes are completely resistant to hearing about a better way to handle something, and Aspies, go "gee, that didn't occur to me, and I was just looking at it this way, but next time I'll try that." I know Bram pretty well, and when something doesn't work, he listens to his friend's suggestions and tries to add them to his social algorithm. Maybe he doesn't do this too publicly, but would you? In casual everyday life he never throws around status, when he meets people he doesn't say anything other than, "I'm a programmer" if asked. He really usually gets embarrassed by recognition and tries to downplay it. However, I think we've all behaved less than humbly when pushed to our boiling point. The trigger is frequently just the straw that breaks the camel's back, and we all can get pissy. It doesn't meet my high spiritual standards for myself when I lose my temper, but it happens. Jeff18 who posted an actually good suggestion on how to handle this situation, would be really good working with Aspies. That is exactly what they need, and what teachers spend most of their time doing with AS children, modeling different solutions. It was very helpful.

jayliew 17y ago

Taking a step back as an impartial observer, (1) Sure, Freenode's policy can be improved, because a significant amt. of users think it is a bit stifling. The admins need to figure out how to engage the users. (2) In this situation, there are solutions more optimal than douche-baggery. If he wanted his nick back, being nice increases his odds. Bram can use a class in negotations 101. OK - Let's move on with our lives now, don't you need to prepare for the 3/3/2010 YC deadline? If you are bored - there are plenty of single founders looking for co-founder.

z8000 17y ago

Why not just do what Shaquille O'Neal did for Twitter? http://twitter.com/THE_REAL_SHAQ http://twitter.com/THE_REAL_SHAQ Look Bram, you can even yell in your nick too! /nick THE_REAL_BRAM /join #bittorrent /privmsg #bittorrent :Trolls, please stop. It's me, Bram.

wedrifid 17y ago

There is a lesson Bram needs to learn. If you wish to avoid being considered a 'douche' you have to better optimise your statements to undermine your oponent and remove their credibility. He could have posted a factual account of his unpleasant experiences with Freenode that included a sincere warning to any other organisers of official projects. Instead he overemphasised the importance of showing both sides of the story. If you are going to be negative then it is important to do it well and do it ruthlessly. Don't try to be fair or direct. Play to the crowd and ruthlessly take the moral high ground or it will be taken from you, as is the case here. It is a little ironic but if Bram had been more of a Machiavellian 'meanie' then he would not have been been labeled a 'meanie'. Some of the posts here provide good advice on ways he could have done that. It seems clear that Bram's misfortune warrants a warning for all potential users of the Freenode servers. Hopefully this is not missed due to Bram's neglect of political expediency.