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As a non-Canadian software developer in Canada the brain-drain to the US via TN visas is strong. Most talented devs I have met in Canada are Americans that have

As a non-Canadian software developer in Canada the brain-drain to the US via TN visas is strong. Most talented devs I have met in Canada are Americans that have left the US because of politics etc.

lewisl9029 11y ago
As a recent University of Waterloo grad, this has been my experience as well. I tried interviewing in Toronto/Vancouver for a while but have since given up in the Canadian job market. Not a single company I interviewed with was willing to even come close to US salaries. Everyone I know from school who's any good at all has already left for SF/Seattle/NYC and I'll probably be joining them soon. I'm not sure how these Canadian companies expect to retain great talent when just across the border, developers can make more money after deducting all living expenses + taxes, than the entire pre-tax salary they're offering.
- hackerboos 11y ago
  It's worse in London. I seen a rant on Medium [1] about the lack of affordable talent in London and I could only think of some of the low ball offers I received which would leave me worse off than staying in the North West. I actually get paid more here in Toronto than I could hope to get in London. My only option for the US is H1B but I'm willing to stick around for a while and I'll consider my options when I'm Canadian. [1] - https://medium.com/@benjilanyado/an-open-letter-to-ed-vaizey-42285d55201c#.t6k1mcku3 https://medium.com/@benjilanyado/an-open-letter-to-ed-vaizey...
  - linkregister 11y ago
    Thanks for that link, it was a good laugh. The dissonance with reality was strong there. A single look at indeed.co.uk will reveal nary a single 600£ daily rate even for senior developers. Best of luck getting a pay increase; hopefully you don't have to deal with the horror of the H1B process to get paid what should be the global rate for software developers.
    - jamiepenney 11y ago
      I love the veiled language in that article - "a new generation of proto-programmers emerge to correct the market" - you mean you hope a bunch of cheap new blood comes in because you wont pay market rates? Yeah, ok.
  - lewisl9029 11y ago
    I realize we're a lot better off here in Canada than in many other places around the world, but it's still baffling how ridiculously uncompetitive our salaries can be when the barrier to entry into the US is almost non-existent.
  - klipt 11y ago
    H1-B isn't exactly the only option. For example if you get a job with the Canadian branch of a multinational US company, after a year you can transfer to their US branch with an L1 visa.
    - hackerboos 11y ago
      True. L1 is actually better than TN because it's dual-intent and better than H1B because there's no cap.
- BlackFly 11y ago
  I myself moved to the Netherlands from Canada and now hire people at salaries greater than my own at our branch in the US. I myself have no motivation to move to the USA. The increase in salary would be accompanied by a personal (stress on the personal aspect) loss in quality of life. Overall motivations for me staying in the Netherlands are cultural (the mindsets of Europeans are far closer to my own), environmental (sane cycling routes, pedestrian accessible city centers, high quality public transport), and ease of travel to a variety of interesting holiday locations. The difference between Canada and the US is not even close to the difference between Canada and the Netherlands, so you can infer my willingness to move home to small town Nova Scotia. If you cannot compete on salaries you have to compete on something else but what is that going to be? Universal health care and high quality public education are not unique to Canada and probably not the highest interest of people we are considering.

As a non-Canadian software developer in Canada the brain-drain to the US via TN visas is strong. Most talented devs I have met in Canada are Americans that have left the US because of politics etc.

lewisl9029 11y ago

As a recent University of Waterloo grad, this has been my experience as well. I tried interviewing in Toronto/Vancouver for a while but have since given up in the Canadian job market. Not a single company I interviewed with was willing to even come close to US salaries. Everyone I know from school who's any good at all has already left for SF/Seattle/NYC and I'll probably be joining them soon. I'm not sure how these Canadian companies expect to retain great talent when just across the border, developers can make more money after deducting all living expenses + taxes, than the entire pre-tax salary they're offering.

hackerboos 11y ago
It's worse in London. I seen a rant on Medium [1] about the lack of affordable talent in London and I could only think of some of the low ball offers I received which would leave me worse off than staying in the North West. I actually get paid more here in Toronto than I could hope to get in London. My only option for the US is H1B but I'm willing to stick around for a while and I'll consider my options when I'm Canadian. [1] - https://medium.com/@benjilanyado/an-open-letter-to-ed-vaizey-42285d55201c#.t6k1mcku3 https://medium.com/@benjilanyado/an-open-letter-to-ed-vaizey...
- linkregister 11y ago
  Thanks for that link, it was a good laugh. The dissonance with reality was strong there. A single look at indeed.co.uk will reveal nary a single 600£ daily rate even for senior developers. Best of luck getting a pay increase; hopefully you don't have to deal with the horror of the H1B process to get paid what should be the global rate for software developers.
  - jamiepenney 11y ago
    I love the veiled language in that article - "a new generation of proto-programmers emerge to correct the market" - you mean you hope a bunch of cheap new blood comes in because you wont pay market rates? Yeah, ok.
- lewisl9029 11y ago
  I realize we're a lot better off here in Canada than in many other places around the world, but it's still baffling how ridiculously uncompetitive our salaries can be when the barrier to entry into the US is almost non-existent.
- klipt 11y ago
  H1-B isn't exactly the only option. For example if you get a job with the Canadian branch of a multinational US company, after a year you can transfer to their US branch with an L1 visa.
  - hackerboos 11y ago
    True. L1 is actually better than TN because it's dual-intent and better than H1B because there's no cap.
BlackFly 11y ago
I myself moved to the Netherlands from Canada and now hire people at salaries greater than my own at our branch in the US. I myself have no motivation to move to the USA. The increase in salary would be accompanied by a personal (stress on the personal aspect) loss in quality of life. Overall motivations for me staying in the Netherlands are cultural (the mindsets of Europeans are far closer to my own), environmental (sane cycling routes, pedestrian accessible city centers, high quality public transport), and ease of travel to a variety of interesting holiday locations. The difference between Canada and the US is not even close to the difference between Canada and the Netherlands, so you can infer my willingness to move home to small town Nova Scotia. If you cannot compete on salaries you have to compete on something else but what is that going to be? Universal health care and high quality public education are not unique to Canada and probably not the highest interest of people we are considering.