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I've been saying this to my circle of friends and family for years. The stark contrast between Toronto and Silicon Valley is mind-numbing. And the short-sighted

I've been saying this to my circle of friends and family for years. The stark contrast between Toronto and Silicon Valley is mind-numbing. And the short-sightedness of our politicians and society is infuriating. I cannot understand why people think it's ok to rely on banks, resource companies, and manufacturing to hold up our economy. We need to invest in growth sectors. It may not create a ton of jobs immediately, but the potential payoff could save us. If you're not growing, you're dying. I'm reaching the point where I need to hire developers soon. I'm worried about what kind of talent I'll be able to find, simply because most people worth their salt are already employed, or work in the Bay. Remote is an option of course, but it adds a lot of complexity that most early-stage startups can't manage well. I'm seriously considering going back to SV.

seivan 11y ago
I thought banks, resource companies and actual manufacturing were usually profitable. While most tech lived on VC money, at least when you look at the Bay Area. What am I missing here? Every time I read about this stuff I always get the impression that tech is this abstract thing that barely makes profit and lives on investments while "traditional" businesses lives on selling actual things that creates profit. Which is why I'm neurotically nervous over an impending tech crash when the dust settles and App Startup X, Y and Z will probably never be profitable with current tech salaries.
- HorizonXP 11y ago
  All of those profitable companies were once unprofitable. They got their start from some sort of initial investment, whether it was investors, family, or just taking an existing profitable business and morphing it. Most startups in the tech sector are exactly as you describe. And that's the point. Eventually, one of those startups finds something that can turn a profit. They build something that people want and are able to push on a few levers and ramp up profitability. Apple, Google, Facebook, and many more, started out as small startups that barely made profit and lived on investments. Eventually, they got their shit together and became some of the world's largest companies. However, most startups that existed at the same time as them, heck, may have even had similar ideas as them, crashed and burned. That's the nature of venture capital. Throw a bunch of money at a bunch of ideas and see what sticks. And if you think that's a very haphazard way of investing, you're right, it is. But as a percentage of total investments made by many funds, VC funding is a very minor portion, so they can somewhat afford to make these bets (and lose).
  - seivan 11y ago
    Yeah but usually those "traditional" business have something more concrete to invest in e.g transportation, inventory, manufacturing or buying shelf space. I imagine if "SnapChat" blows up, they won't need to hire the engineers GameApp0, FoodApp1, CarApp2 let go. It doesn't really need to scale like a "traditional" factory. I get what you're saying, and I am not arguing against your points. I am just trying to get clarification if I'm worried for no reason. The salaries are high because so many startups live on credit. Eventually they die and the supply is higher than the demand.
    - HorizonXP 11y ago
      I wouldn't say you're worried for no reason, but software is an outlier: it requires very little equipment to build. You could literally write software anywhere in the world as long as you have a computer, and as a byproduct, an Internet connection. If you're sufficiently motivated, you'll always be able to find work, either as an employee, or as an independent consultant.
mhurron 11y ago
> I'm seriously considering going back to SV. You do know that tech centers in the US are outliers and general policy in the US is basically the same as Canada, and other countries that have a large mass of natural resources, Australia for example. Mass exploitation of every resource in reach will make us rich. Or, to put it another way 'Drill baby drill.' Silicon Valley and those that think it's different live in a little bubble that doesn't reflect the way the rest of the country thinks or acts. So moving to Silicon Valley because you don't like the short sighted drain every resource because it's cheap right now line of thinking won't be an act to change any of that, it will just let you ignore that it's happening.
- HorizonXP 11y ago
  100% agreed. But that insulated bubble is tremendously helpful for growing from a little shitstorm of a startup into something potentially world-changing. Your odds are vanishingly low when it comes to succeeding in a startup. As a founder, you should do everything you can to stack the odds in your favour. Edit: I can't respond to your reply, so I'll do it here. It's not just about funding. It's about finding like-minded individuals that are similarly motivated. It's about finding talent. It's about culture. I love Toronto, and I love Canada. I want to be here. But it's better in SV for tech startups.
  - mhurron 11y ago
    Then stop pretending that going to Silicon Valley is part of any social views and just go with the fact that it's easier to get money thrown at you in Silicon Valley and your just feeding another problem. To your edit: > It's not just about funding. It's about finding like-minded individuals That's one problem you're part of fueling. There is no reason you can't have people work remotely. You shouldn't have to go to a physical place to find like minded people. However, thanks to people looking at funding can only happen in SV, and then start-ups being somehow having such a backwards view that if you're not in the seat I can see it's to hard to work as a team, and the believe that the only place to find decent, 'like-minded' people are in SV, everyone has to go to SV to get a job. So a little bubble ends up sucking up a whole bunch of money and being a contributor to growing social problems in both SV and where ever everyone comes from.
stinkytaco 11y ago
>We need to invest in growth sectors. It may not create a ton of jobs immediately, but the potential payoff could save us. If you're not growing, you're dying. I'm curious what these growth sectors are? Are you referring to software companies? Because though I agree that's a growth sector, it's hard for me to envision how many jobs that creates in the long run. Wouldn't it create the same problems as manufacturing, i.e. it's cheaper to outsource or automate so its job pool will shrink over time? Resources and manufacturing are real, tangible things that have real tangible value. Services, though the natural growth of an economy it seems, are fleeting and easy to do without when things go wrong. I agree that we can't lean and need to encourage a diverse economy, but I would also argue that investment in any area is a gamble, and gambling is hard for a government to do when under constant public scrutiny.
- HorizonXP 11y ago
  Personally, as invested as I am in the software space, I think Canada should not invest in software technology, at least not exclusively. It's cheap enough that we could still encourage it. I was doing my Masters in Medical Imaging at the University of Toronto (did not complete). The number of talented students and professors that I interacted with on a regular basis was astounding. And they were working on really amazing things. Here's a group of potentially 100s of well-educated students that came out of the Canadian education system, so our tax dollars went towards a lot of their training. And once they're done their PhD, they're stuck trying to compete for very limited faculty positions, or finding a post-doc program somewhere, usually abroad. The brain drain in biotechnology is the one we should be worrying about. We have fantastic resources available here in terms of teaching hospitals and facilities, but no one's taking advantage of it. And the space of biotechnology is so broad and unexplored, that we could be investing in a number of avenues to try to achieve something in the area. To quote the cliched Wayne Gretzky: Skate to where the puck is going, not where it is.
  - patrick_99 11y ago
    Totally agree and government could have a big role here. A majority of government budget goes to healthcare; they need innovation to improve. Why not throw some money to Canadian biotech companies?
jordigh 11y ago
Not to play second fiddle to Toronto and Vancouver, but here in Mtl we have a fairly lively startup scene and some bigger players like Ubisoft, Google, and Bombardier as well. I frequent our Montréal Python usergroup, and I'm routinely impressed by the calibre of the presentations and the work that people are showing off.[1] If you want talent, it's certainly available, and it's cheaper than SV. [1] https://www.youtube.com/user/MontrealPython/videos https://www.youtube.com/user/MontrealPython/videos
- HorizonXP 11y ago
  Thanks for reminding me of this.
- green7ea 11y ago
  The problem is that the gov. subsidizes big, foreign companies that export most of their profits. If only this talent was invested in local companies that reinvested the profits locally.
  - lintiness 11y ago
    energy / natural resource extraction requires huge capital investments. tech startups don't.
- sirkneeland 11y ago
  Montreal has a fairly decent cluster of game studios, does it not? If nothing else I'm hoping they're hard at work making the next Deus Ex game at Eidos Montreal :)
  - jordigh 11y ago
    > Montreal has a fairly decent cluster of game studios, does it not? Yeah. I work close to Ubisoft, and there's a cluster of startups around its offices. At lunch hour, all of the local eateries are full of hacker types.
  - serge2k 11y ago
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
fche 11y ago
"We need to invest in growth sectors." Who exactly is this "we"? You personally can invest in whatever sectors you like, and so can your neighbours. How is that not enough?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
slavik81 11y ago
> The stark contrast between Toronto and Silicon Valley is mind-numbing. And the short-sightedness of our politicians and society is infuriating. As a Canadian in tech, moving to SV is something I regularly consider. However, the nonsense that is Bay-area politics is really off-putting. Unfortunately, the state and federal politics are hardly any better. Americans seem to hate each other. There are many things that are attractive about the United States. The politics are definitely are not up there on my list. (That being said, from Toronto maybe it's not such a big step down. The Rob Ford fiasco appeared to be a symptom of deeper problems.)
anonbanker 11y ago
American expat having the same nerd shortage in Manitoba, but worse. 1 out of 100 have heard of linux, and 7 out of ten of those will wince/sneer when it's mentioned. A handful of people use Solaris or AIX (because you don't get fired for buying IBM/ORCL), but most are windows peasants trying to keep their ASP.NET skills relevant. It's like living in 1999 again.
nasalgoat 11y ago
There's decent devs here in Toronto. You just need to pay them above average pay. Also, getting people right of school is a good way to get talent before it moves south.

seivan 11y ago

I thought banks, resource companies and actual manufacturing were usually profitable. While most tech lived on VC money, at least when you look at the Bay Area. What am I missing here? Every time I read about this stuff I always get the impression that tech is this abstract thing that barely makes profit and lives on investments while "traditional" businesses lives on selling actual things that creates profit. Which is why I'm neurotically nervous over an impending tech crash when the dust settles and App Startup X, Y and Z will probably never be profitable with current tech salaries.

HorizonXP 11y ago
All of those profitable companies were once unprofitable. They got their start from some sort of initial investment, whether it was investors, family, or just taking an existing profitable business and morphing it. Most startups in the tech sector are exactly as you describe. And that's the point. Eventually, one of those startups finds something that can turn a profit. They build something that people want and are able to push on a few levers and ramp up profitability. Apple, Google, Facebook, and many more, started out as small startups that barely made profit and lived on investments. Eventually, they got their shit together and became some of the world's largest companies. However, most startups that existed at the same time as them, heck, may have even had similar ideas as them, crashed and burned. That's the nature of venture capital. Throw a bunch of money at a bunch of ideas and see what sticks. And if you think that's a very haphazard way of investing, you're right, it is. But as a percentage of total investments made by many funds, VC funding is a very minor portion, so they can somewhat afford to make these bets (and lose).
- seivan 11y ago
  Yeah but usually those "traditional" business have something more concrete to invest in e.g transportation, inventory, manufacturing or buying shelf space. I imagine if "SnapChat" blows up, they won't need to hire the engineers GameApp0, FoodApp1, CarApp2 let go. It doesn't really need to scale like a "traditional" factory. I get what you're saying, and I am not arguing against your points. I am just trying to get clarification if I'm worried for no reason. The salaries are high because so many startups live on credit. Eventually they die and the supply is higher than the demand.
  - HorizonXP 11y ago
    I wouldn't say you're worried for no reason, but software is an outlier: it requires very little equipment to build. You could literally write software anywhere in the world as long as you have a computer, and as a byproduct, an Internet connection. If you're sufficiently motivated, you'll always be able to find work, either as an employee, or as an independent consultant.

mhurron 11y ago

> I'm seriously considering going back to SV. You do know that tech centers in the US are outliers and general policy in the US is basically the same as Canada, and other countries that have a large mass of natural resources, Australia for example. Mass exploitation of every resource in reach will make us rich. Or, to put it another way 'Drill baby drill.' Silicon Valley and those that think it's different live in a little bubble that doesn't reflect the way the rest of the country thinks or acts. So moving to Silicon Valley because you don't like the short sighted drain every resource because it's cheap right now line of thinking won't be an act to change any of that, it will just let you ignore that it's happening.

HorizonXP 11y ago
100% agreed. But that insulated bubble is tremendously helpful for growing from a little shitstorm of a startup into something potentially world-changing. Your odds are vanishingly low when it comes to succeeding in a startup. As a founder, you should do everything you can to stack the odds in your favour. Edit: I can't respond to your reply, so I'll do it here. It's not just about funding. It's about finding like-minded individuals that are similarly motivated. It's about finding talent. It's about culture. I love Toronto, and I love Canada. I want to be here. But it's better in SV for tech startups.
- mhurron 11y ago
  Then stop pretending that going to Silicon Valley is part of any social views and just go with the fact that it's easier to get money thrown at you in Silicon Valley and your just feeding another problem. To your edit: > It's not just about funding. It's about finding like-minded individuals That's one problem you're part of fueling. There is no reason you can't have people work remotely. You shouldn't have to go to a physical place to find like minded people. However, thanks to people looking at funding can only happen in SV, and then start-ups being somehow having such a backwards view that if you're not in the seat I can see it's to hard to work as a team, and the believe that the only place to find decent, 'like-minded' people are in SV, everyone has to go to SV to get a job. So a little bubble ends up sucking up a whole bunch of money and being a contributor to growing social problems in both SV and where ever everyone comes from.

stinkytaco 11y ago

>We need to invest in growth sectors. It may not create a ton of jobs immediately, but the potential payoff could save us. If you're not growing, you're dying. I'm curious what these growth sectors are? Are you referring to software companies? Because though I agree that's a growth sector, it's hard for me to envision how many jobs that creates in the long run. Wouldn't it create the same problems as manufacturing, i.e. it's cheaper to outsource or automate so its job pool will shrink over time? Resources and manufacturing are real, tangible things that have real tangible value. Services, though the natural growth of an economy it seems, are fleeting and easy to do without when things go wrong. I agree that we can't lean and need to encourage a diverse economy, but I would also argue that investment in any area is a gamble, and gambling is hard for a government to do when under constant public scrutiny.

HorizonXP 11y ago
Personally, as invested as I am in the software space, I think Canada should not invest in software technology, at least not exclusively. It's cheap enough that we could still encourage it. I was doing my Masters in Medical Imaging at the University of Toronto (did not complete). The number of talented students and professors that I interacted with on a regular basis was astounding. And they were working on really amazing things. Here's a group of potentially 100s of well-educated students that came out of the Canadian education system, so our tax dollars went towards a lot of their training. And once they're done their PhD, they're stuck trying to compete for very limited faculty positions, or finding a post-doc program somewhere, usually abroad. The brain drain in biotechnology is the one we should be worrying about. We have fantastic resources available here in terms of teaching hospitals and facilities, but no one's taking advantage of it. And the space of biotechnology is so broad and unexplored, that we could be investing in a number of avenues to try to achieve something in the area. To quote the cliched Wayne Gretzky: Skate to where the puck is going, not where it is.
- patrick_99 11y ago
  Totally agree and government could have a big role here. A majority of government budget goes to healthcare; they need innovation to improve. Why not throw some money to Canadian biotech companies?

jordigh 11y ago

Not to play second fiddle to Toronto and Vancouver, but here in Mtl we have a fairly lively startup scene and some bigger players like Ubisoft, Google, and Bombardier as well. I frequent our Montréal Python usergroup, and I'm routinely impressed by the calibre of the presentations and the work that people are showing off.[1] If you want talent, it's certainly available, and it's cheaper than SV. [1] https://www.youtube.com/user/MontrealPython/videos https://www.youtube.com/user/MontrealPython/videos

HorizonXP 11y ago
Thanks for reminding me of this.
green7ea 11y ago
The problem is that the gov. subsidizes big, foreign companies that export most of their profits. If only this talent was invested in local companies that reinvested the profits locally.
- lintiness 11y ago
  energy / natural resource extraction requires huge capital investments. tech startups don't.
sirkneeland 11y ago
Montreal has a fairly decent cluster of game studios, does it not? If nothing else I'm hoping they're hard at work making the next Deus Ex game at Eidos Montreal :)
- jordigh 11y ago
  > Montreal has a fairly decent cluster of game studios, does it not? Yeah. I work close to Ubisoft, and there's a cluster of startups around its offices. At lunch hour, all of the local eateries are full of hacker types.
- serge2k 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

fche 11y ago

"We need to invest in growth sectors." Who exactly is this "we"? You personally can invest in whatever sectors you like, and so can your neighbours. How is that not enough?

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

slavik81 11y ago

> The stark contrast between Toronto and Silicon Valley is mind-numbing. And the short-sightedness of our politicians and society is infuriating. As a Canadian in tech, moving to SV is something I regularly consider. However, the nonsense that is Bay-area politics is really off-putting. Unfortunately, the state and federal politics are hardly any better. Americans seem to hate each other. There are many things that are attractive about the United States. The politics are definitely are not up there on my list. (That being said, from Toronto maybe it's not such a big step down. The Rob Ford fiasco appeared to be a symptom of deeper problems.)

anonbanker 11y ago

American expat having the same nerd shortage in Manitoba, but worse. 1 out of 100 have heard of linux, and 7 out of ten of those will wince/sneer when it's mentioned. A handful of people use Solaris or AIX (because you don't get fired for buying IBM/ORCL), but most are windows peasants trying to keep their ASP.NET skills relevant. It's like living in 1999 again.

nasalgoat 11y ago

There's decent devs here in Toronto. You just need to pay them above average pay. Also, getting people right of school is a good way to get talent before it moves south.